mtDNA W in Tuscany and the last prophets


Posts: 2288
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:55 pm
The recent paper of A. Olivieri et al., Mitogenomes from Two Uncommon Haplogroups Mark Late Glacial/Postglacial Expansion from the Near east and Neolithic Dispersals within Europe, PLOS One, July 2013, not only states what we are being affirming from many years (that if there was expansion from Middle East it happens so long ago, after the LGM and Neolithic, I'd say after the Younger Dryas as I am saying, and that Europe was peopled by inner moves rather than inputs from outside, and you know that for me these inner moves came from Italy above all), but, taking in consideration two rare halogroups (I and W), what we are doing from many years, they try to understand these inner moves.
What about these haplogroups, derived from N?

"Our results showed that haplogroups N1a1b1, I and W most probably originated in the Near East during the Last Glacial Maximum [...] and, like J and T, may have been involved in Late Glacial expansion starting from the Near East" (p. 3).
But which is the surprise?
"Moreover, at least nine paraphyletic mitogenomes (mainly from the Near East) do not fall within any of the seven major subclades of haplogroup W. In particular, the Italian sample #223, bearing a single reversion of the defining control-region variant at position 16292, might even possibly radiate before the root of the entire haplogroup W. However, the hypothesis of a founder haplotype from central Italy remains enigmatic and would need further evidence to be properly supported" ( p. 10)

In the 1KGP there are 4 hg. W in Tuscans:
NA20503 W4*
NA20762 W5a1a
NA20804 W6a
and this NA20510 W*

A73G A189G T195C T204c G207A A263G G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G A4093G A4769G G5046A G5460A C7028T G8251A T8614C A8860G G8994A C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G G15884C C16192T C16223T A16309G T16325C T16519C

Posts: 2288
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:13 pm
I thought that the sample from Central Italy was that from Tuscany from 1KGP, but not, it is this from Umbria (KF146293). How many surprises!


211 Tor778 W Near East Iran, Khuzistan KF146291 This Study
212 JQ702358 W JQ702358 [2] 22482806
213 JQ245759 W Near East Turkey JQ245759 [3] 22284828
214 JQ245778 W Near East Yemen JQ245778 [3] 22284828
215 NA19776 W USA USA, Mexican origin 1000 Genomes Project
220 Tor776 W Near East Iran, Gilan KF146292 This Study
221 JQ702989 W JQ702989 [2] 22482806
222 EU086510 W Unknown - EU086510 Family Tree DNA Direct Submission
223 Tor775 W Europe West Italy, Umbria KF146293 This Study

Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:59 pm

YDNA:
R1a1a1b2a1
MtDNA:
H15a1
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:29 am
Gioiello wrote:The recent paper of A. Olivieri et al., Mitogenomes from Two Uncommon Haplogroups Mark Late Glacial/Postglacial Expansion from the Near east and Neolithic Dispersals within Europe, PLOS One, July 2013, not only states what we are being affirming from many years (that if there was expansion from Middle East it happens so long ago, after the LGM and Neolithic, I'd say after the Younger Dryas as I am saying, and that Europe was peopled by inner moves rather than inputs from outside, and you know that for me these inner moves came from Italy above all), but, taking in consideration two rare halogroups (I and W), what we are doing from many years, they try to understand these inner moves.
What about these haplogroups, derived from N?

"Our results showed that haplogroups N1a1b1, I and W most probably originated in the Near East during the Last Glacial Maximum [...] and, like J and T, may have been involved in Late Glacial expansion starting from the Near East" (p. 3).
But which is the surprise?
"Moreover, at least nine paraphyletic mitogenomes (mainly from the Near East) do not fall within any of the seven major subclades of haplogroup W. In particular, the Italian sample #223, bearing a single reversion of the defining control-region variant at position 16292, might even possibly radiate before the root of the entire haplogroup W. However, the hypothesis of a founder haplotype from central Italy remains enigmatic and would need further evidence to be properly supported" ( p. 10)

In the 1KGP there are 4 hg. W in Tuscans:
NA20503 W4*
NA20762 W5a1a
NA20804 W6a
and this NA20510 W*

A73G A189G T195C T204c G207A A263G G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G A4093G A4769G G5046A G5460A C7028T G8251A T8614C A8860G G8994A C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G G15884C C16192T C16223T A16309G T16325C T16519C


The paper says that mtDNA is from the Near East, not Italy. The Italian sample #223 has a back mutation at position 16292, however, this is not something unique. The same back mutation can be found in many individuals within haplogroup W:
EF609013(Polish) FTDNA (W1)
AY714039(India) Palanichamy (W1c)
EU257638 FTDNA (W1c)
EF556154 Behar2008 (W1d)
EF657508 mtDNA349(Europe) Herrnstadt (W3a1a)
GU123000(Russia) Malyarchuk (W3a1a)
AY339460.2(Finland) Moilanen (W4)
EU400619 FTDNA (W4)
HM034304 FTDNA (W4a)
EF657509 mtDNA35(Europe) Herrnstadt (W5a)

Position 16292 is not stable. Any interpretation about mtDNA W based on position 16292 can be ignored.

The sequence you presented (A73G A189G T195C T204c G207A A263G G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G A4093G A4769G G5046A G5460A C7028T G8251A T8614C A8860G G8994A C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G G15884C C16192T C16223T A16309G T16325C T16519C) is W6, NOT W*.
Last edited by Palisto on Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 2288
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:13 am
Palisto wrote:The paper says that mtDNA is from the Near East, not Italy. The Italian sample #223 has a back mutation at position 16292, however, this is not something unique. The same back mutation can be found in many individuals within haplogroup W:
EF609013(Polish) FTDNA (W1)
AY714039(India) Palanichamy (W1c)
EU257638 FTDNA (W1c)
EF556154 Behar2008 (W1d)
EF657508 mtDNA349(Europe) Herrnstadt (W3a1a)
GU123000(Russia) Malyarchuk (W3a1a)
AY339460.2(Finland) Moilanen (W4)
EU400619 FTDNA (W4)
HM034304 FTDNA (W4a)
EF657509 mtDNA35(Europe) Herrnstadt (W5a)

Position 16292 is not stable. Any interpretation about mtDNA W based on position 16292 can be ignored.

The sequence you presented (A73G A189G T195C T204c G207A A263G G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G A4093G A4769G G5046A G5460A C7028T G8251A T8614C A8860G G8994A C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G G15884C C16192T C16223T A16309G T16325C T16519C) is W5, NOT W*.


Palisto, I didn't say that hg. W is European. Only that it is probably in Europe from many thousands of years, like many other haplogroups, Y and mt. Anyway I am seeing that, from the Ian Logan spreadsheet, it seems that the European samples, in every subclades, are massive, and I'd want to study the thing deeper. I was studying these haplotypes, but this night (for us in Italy) have been published the paper of Francalacci and others which seem to bring grist to my own mill.
After the banishment of Lohizun from Rootsweb I said that I found a bullock and he only some horns and that it shouldn't be permitted that someone much less valid could decide the destiny of others much more smart. I found another troll or many trolls put together.
Always glad to discuss with a smart person like you.

Posts: 2288
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:59 am
Palisto wrote:The sequence you presented (A73G A189G T195C T204c G207A A263G G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G A4093G A4769G G5046A G5460A C7028T G8251A T8614C A8860G G8994A C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G G15884C C16192T C16223T A16309G T16325C T16519C) is W5, NOT W*.


W5?

W5 C6528T A15775G

W5a A10097G T16362C JQ701827 Behar 2012b

W5a1 T10410C JN583886

W5a1a T4363C EF652811 GU646872

W5a1a1 A9275G JF431251 EU135972

W5a1a1a T57C 60.1T T139C HM057816 GU828018

W5a2 C150T GU726895 JF419335

W5b 60.1TT T65d G11696A EU744586 JQ703283 Behar 2012b

Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:59 pm

YDNA:
R1a1a1b2a1
MtDNA:
H15a1
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:17 pm
Gioiello wrote:
Palisto wrote:The sequence you presented (A73G A189G T195C T204c G207A A263G G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G A4093G A4769G G5046A G5460A C7028T G8251A T8614C A8860G G8994A C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G G15884C C16192T C16223T A16309G T16325C T16519C) is W5, NOT W*.


W5?

Sorry, I meant W6, not W5. I changed it now.

Posts: 2288
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:48 pm
Palisto wrote:Sorry, I meant W6, not W5. I changed it now.


Yes, W6 with 16292T.
W6 A4093G T8614C T16325C JF902025 C16192T FJ449703 JQ245762 Behar 2012b W6a T8610C JQ705209 GQ149695 Behar 2012b W6b T4646C T6297C T8705C JQ245761 FJ473381 Behar 2012b W6c C8002T C8658T EU515252 JF275845

And the other sample is W6a. Italy is plenty of this haplogroup. From my archive I find this letter:

Hi. 5XJM8 is a person I found on SMGF and put on Mitosearch. Unfortunately SMGF is out now. He/she is from Italy and probably had a back mutation in 00194, but two other Italians match closely you: 7YMBC and GPVN5. When I studied these haplotypes, I thought that the haplogroup was W6. It seems clearly an Italian haplogroup. Have you had an FGS or are going to have it?
Regards, Gioiello Tognoni

And this is a sample from the Rhaetian Region:
126. FJ348172 Irene W6 29-NOV-2008
A73G A189G T195C T204C G207A A263G 315.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G A4093G A4769G G5046A G5460A C7028T G8251A T8614C A8860G G8994A C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G G15884C C16192T C16223T T16325C T16519C

Of course I should study all this. Anyway these are the ages of W6 and subclades from Behar 2012b:


W6 10770.9 3594.1
W6a 6444.9 4171.2
W6b 7208.0 3742.7
W6c 8287.4 3436.7

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