Of Gods and government: atheists are the least trusted?

You can discuss some non-genetic or non-genealogical things here. Pull up a chair and have a beer! But if you bring up politics or religion, the barman will cut you off. The forum rules do apply here especially regarding civility.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:21 pm
I have to say, I struggled all night with this...delete it or keep it. I think it's a valid discussion, but these topics do tend to devolve into mud-slinging and hurt feelings. I've been watching quite a few 23andme and FTDNA threads devolve into name-calling and threats over silly things, but I've also seen individuals debate with tact and great insight.

I guess what made me post this is the surprise of how poorly atheists are regarded. It's actually Medical Express, not ScienceDaily, that I found the report and I was stunned while I read it. The article says atheists have the:
"lowest social acceptance rates of any group that Americans are asked about"
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-04-s ... eists.html

I just don't feel that unaccepted...yes, I recognize that my belief system is not the "norm" but are my neighbors with kids secretly hoping their kids don't marry my kids? I feel like questions about religion has been playing too big of a role in American politics, and I think an atheist president is probably not on the horizon but they said that about a Catholic president (Kennedy) and it looks like a Mormon is in strong contention right now. From what I can tell, a good percentage of Americans aren't going to church regularly or observing tenets of religion...so maybe the difference is just one of semantics?

In looking for this article at ScienceDaily, I found another interesting article on the subject:
More Than 20 Percent of Atheist Scientists Are 'Spiritual', Study Finds
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 124039.htm

I honestly think there's much more middle ground here: many atheists are spiritual, and many "believer's" are really just spiritually connected to religion - not actively participating. I think the divide, if there is one, is being fostered by a rabid "if it bleeds it leads" media and some extremes on either side. And of course, fear. People fear what they don't understand, and seem to need a boogeyman to rally against. In a land where almost everyone is from somewhere else, lack of religious belief may be the boogeyman everyone can agree on --- kind of ironic, when you think about how the country was founded.
mtDNA: J1c3i
Husband/son: B1778 R-L226 Frawley from Rathkeale, Limerick, Ireland
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H
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:51 pm
Hi folks....I see nothing wrong with this discussion. I personally concider myself a spiritual person based on some experiences I have had in my life; I am 72. I am not a believer in any religion. If you can call the old beliefs in mans relationship with a Supreme Power a religion then it is a totally private and unorganized one. However my beliefs are strong. I live in a small town and most everyone knows each other business. I have not tried to hide my beliefs and have felt quite a lot of adverse feelings toward me because I am not a part of most peoples cookie cutter religions. I am different and different is dangerous in some minds. We have several folks that claim to be atheists and even I feel strange when talking to them about their lack of belief in anything spirtual. I want to explain my beliefs and why and how I came to them. However I do not. I believe all people in this country have the right to believe as they will. However I can see how a person with a very dogmatic belief would feel uneasy around a strong atheist belief. I saw those findings several days ago and was not surprised however it does make me a little nervous for where we are headed in this country.
Y J1c3d P58+ L147.1+ L222- 174- Z644- Z640- Z644- +L1252 +L1253 L1279- Z1884+ CTS5857-
FTDNA N42042
Oldest Y ancestor:
Archebald Graham, father of David b. Dec. 23, 1647 in Edinburgh, Scotland
Oldest Mt: My mother's grandmother on her Mother's side: Sonicooie b +- 1743 CNE [Cherokee Nation East]was father to Soniovie [Susannah] Sonicooie
My mother's grandmother on her father's side was 1/2 Creek Indian from Alabama
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:42 pm
Little bit....It is hard for us to grasp but we humans are very much the same creature that was around 2000-3000 years ago. We have advanced technologically but emotionally we have not advanced much if any from those people. We are still a trible, clannish group. The older humans feared any one that did not look or talk like they did or dress like they did; a different plaid would get you killed. The fear was so great that clan wars were almost continual. Todays humans are not much different and still fear anyone not like themselves in looks and beliefs. In certain parts of this world we now live in you can get killed for not having the same belief that is standard in that part of the world. This is going on today! So you should not be surprised by that study here in the good old USA.
Y J1c3d P58+ L147.1+ L222- 174- Z644- Z640- Z644- +L1252 +L1253 L1279- Z1884+ CTS5857-
FTDNA N42042
Oldest Y ancestor:
Archebald Graham, father of David b. Dec. 23, 1647 in Edinburgh, Scotland
Oldest Mt: My mother's grandmother on her Mother's side: Sonicooie b +- 1743 CNE [Cherokee Nation East]was father to Soniovie [Susannah] Sonicooie
My mother's grandmother on her father's side was 1/2 Creek Indian from Alabama

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:20 pm
Little bit wrote:As for myself, I just hold myself accountable at all times, not having a magic "do-over" button to fall back on.

- "I hold myself accountable [to my own whims rather than any objective standard]" is another way of saying, "I am God." That is indeed a religion, though one that is thought by most Americans to be rather sociopathic.

- "I hold myself accountable [to an objective standard to which I prefer not to give a personal name]" is also a religion, typically unnamed. Quite reasonably, most Americans don't know what to think of this unnamed religion without a clear description of exactly what these objective standards are, from where they were derived, and how they are enforced.

A truly nonreligious person believes that neither humanity, nor life, nor existence, has any transcendental purpose or meaning whatsoever. Anyone who actually believes this would immediately kill himself, so we must conclude that those living people who claim such a belief are deceiving us (and probably themselves as well).

By the way, the cited article contains the quite laughable notion that we can depend on "police enforcement" to ensure social virtue. Anyone who reads history and the news with a critical eye knows that the greatest criminals past and present not only avoid police enforcement against themselves but manipulate that enforcement to propagate their evil and persecute the good.

In the words of John Adams, our second President:
---
Because we have no government, armed with power, capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
---
Last edited by lgmayka on Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:53 pm
lgmayka wrote:
Little bit wrote:As for myself, I just hold myself accountable at all times, not having a magic "do-over" button to fall back on.

- "I hold myself accountable [to my own whims rather than any objective standard]" is another way of saying, "I am God." That is indeed a religion, though one that is thought by most Americans to be rather sociopathic.

Incredible, but thanks for posting this! Now I can understand very much better, why some people demand, that topics like religion should be banned!
Y (FXHD8) mt (D9M4P), MurtiX, DE1(DE22), DOD219, M111723 (M001628)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:41 pm
Mike was right: it just takes one poster to take it too far.



lgmayka wrote:
Little bit wrote:As for myself, I just hold myself accountable at all times, not having a magic "do-over" button to fall back on.

- "I hold myself accountable [to my own whims rather than any objective standard]" is another way of saying, "I am God." That is indeed a religion, though one that is thought by most Americans to be rather sociopathic.

- "I hold myself accountable [to an objective standard to which I prefer not to give a personal name]" is also a religion, typically unnamed. Quite reasonably, most Americans don't know what to think of this unnamed religion without a clear description of exactly what these objective standards are, from where they were derived, and how they are enforced.

A truly nonreligious person believes that neither humanity, nor life, nor existence, has any transcendental purpose or meaning whatsoever. Anyone who actually believes this would immediately kill himself, so we must conclude that those living people who claim such a belief are deceiving us (and probably themselves as well).
---
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:39 pm
I can follow the argument, but isn't it disappointing, that single posters can really destroy an intelligent conversation between adult persons?
Y (FXHD8) mt (D9M4P), MurtiX, DE1(DE22), DOD219, M111723 (M001628)
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:30 am
I agree with Z! The people that can control themselves and keep a discussion on a polite level should not be penalized by those few who can not. Simply delete their privilege.
Y J1c3d P58+ L147.1+ L222- 174- Z644- Z640- Z644- +L1252 +L1253 L1279- Z1884+ CTS5857-
FTDNA N42042
Oldest Y ancestor:
Archebald Graham, father of David b. Dec. 23, 1647 in Edinburgh, Scotland
Oldest Mt: My mother's grandmother on her Mother's side: Sonicooie b +- 1743 CNE [Cherokee Nation East]was father to Soniovie [Susannah] Sonicooie
My mother's grandmother on her father's side was 1/2 Creek Indian from Alabama

Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:57 pm

MtDNA:
J1c3i
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:19 pm
Page 3 seems to be an out-of-order repeat????? Yes, it disappointing that we can no longer have civil discussions without mud throwing - it's as they say that when you start throwing mud, everybody just ends up dirty. Nevertheless, it was good while it lasted :D
mtDNA: J1c3i
Husband/son: B1778 R-L226 Frawley from Rathkeale, Limerick, Ireland
Grandpa: 259187 R-L21 DF13+ Griffith from Cardigan, Wales
M102536
23andme V3 upgrade, I'm on openSNP
User avatar
Posts: 134
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:23 pm
Location: Western Colorado
YDNA:
J-L147.1 J1c3d L1253
MtDNA:
H
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 10:23 pm
I have a DNA group[ J1c3d] that is more or less dominated, at least at our early source by several religious groups. That is what makes it an interesting haplogroup; at least to me. Sorry... but we can not discuss our origin [ or possible orgin ] because one or more of the groups gets bent totally out of shape...over nothing. Ah well. Onward and upward humans.
Y J1c3d P58+ L147.1+ L222- 174- Z644- Z640- Z644- +L1252 +L1253 L1279- Z1884+ CTS5857-
FTDNA N42042
Oldest Y ancestor:
Archebald Graham, father of David b. Dec. 23, 1647 in Edinburgh, Scotland
Oldest Mt: My mother's grandmother on her Mother's side: Sonicooie b +- 1743 CNE [Cherokee Nation East]was father to Soniovie [Susannah] Sonicooie
My mother's grandmother on her father's side was 1/2 Creek Indian from Alabama
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