Lupi e sciacalli


Posts: 2217
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:26 pm
My victory is just definitive now (D’Atanasio et al. , The peopling of the last Green Sahara revealed by high-coverage resenquencing of trans.Saharan patrilineages, Genome Biology)

“Outside Africa, both A3-M13 and R-V88 harbour sub-lineages geographically restricted to the island of Sardinia and both seem to indicate ancient trans-Mediterranean contacts. The phylogeography of A3-M13 suggests that the direction of the movement was from Africa to Sardinia, while R-V88 topology indicates a Europe-to-Africa migration. Indeed, our data suggest a European origin of R-V88 about 12.3 kya, considering both the presence of two Sardinian R-V88 basal clades (R-M18 and R-V35) and that the V88 marker arose in the R-M343 background, which in turn includes Near-Eastern/European lineages. It is worth noting that the arrival of R-V88 in the Sahara seems to have occurred between 8.67 and 7.85 kya (considering as an upper limit the time estimates of the last node including a European-specific lineage, while the lower limit is the coalescence age of all the African-specific lineages), refining the time frame of the trans-Saharan migration proposed in previous studies. The route of R-V88 toward the lake Chad basin probably passed through northeastern Africa rather than Arabia, considering the absence of R-V88 in the Horn of Africa. Interestingly, both A3-M13 and R-V88 European sub-clades coalesced in ancient times (> 7.62 kya for A3-M13/V2742 and between 12.34 and 8.67 kya for R-V88/M18 and R-V88/V35) (Additional file 2: Figures S2 and S5). So it is possible that both clades were widespread in southern Europe, where they have been replaced by the Y haplogroups brought by the following recurrent migration waves from Asia”

Also if it is a scandal that these authors write: “and that the V88 marker arose in the R-M343 background, which in turn includes Near-Eastern/European lineages”. R1 is only from European hunter-gatherers. Seen that the authors are above all Italian I say: il lupo perde il pelo ma non il vizio.
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Posts: 2217
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:37 pm
S197 R-V88* Bulgaria Sephardic Bulgarians Modern present study

How did D’Atanasio et al know that sample S197 was a Sephardic Bulgarian? We know from YFull that this subclade has a Sephardic from Greece (
164134 CARASSO of Salonika, Greece (Y) Greece
) and many Iberians, but that the Jewish cluster is long more downstream Galea (from Malta but of Italian descent).

Posts: 2217
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:35 am
Of course it is out of any doubt that the oldest R-V88 subclades are in Europe:
_b1. R1b-V88* Italy and UK
_b2a1. R1b-V88 > SK2065 > SK2063 > FGC20970* Italy and UK
_b2a2. R1b-V88 > SK2065 > SK2063 > V35 huge presence in Sardinia and a sample from Iberia on the FTDNA tree.
But how to mean that this subclade _b2a1. R1b-V88 > SK2065 > SK2063 > FGC20970* has samples from Arabia and again samples from Europe [b2a1a. R1b-V88 > SK2065 > SK2063 > FGC20970 > FGC20973.] and also upstream the “African” V69 there is an European subclade [_b2a1b. R1b-V88 > SK2065 > SK2063 > FGC20970 > V1589*]?

Following the logic of the D’Atanasio’s [but read Cruciani] paper these samples should be back migrations from Africa to Europe.
First of all the three samples that the paper exhibits as old lines out of Europe have to be exhamined: the Sephardic sample from Bulgaria [S197] is a fake as I demonstrated above: it derives from Iberia as an introgression into the Jewish pool and is very recent.
Sample S204 [230] from Arabia, with the SNP V5776/hg19: 15441875 (T>C), descends from the sister clade of V35 present only in Sardinia and Iberia downstream FGC20970/Y8447. Of course we may think that this is an African cluster and that Iberians (and the derived Jewish cluster) may have come from Arabs during the conquest of Iberia, but why don’t think to the other way around, that these few samples found in Arabia and Africa may have come from Iberians introgressed the Arab pool and come back to Africa/Arabia?
Thus these three samples [230,231,232] aren’t enough for demonstrating the introgression of R-V88 into Africa at 7850 years ago as to D’Atanasio et al. And also the huge R-V88-V69 subclade may have derived from introgressions from Europe rather than the other way around. Many questions have to be inquiered yet, for instance why only this subclade, the huge one in Africa, would have been back migrated into Europe and why Africa with its huge samples has only downstream samples and not any sample at the upstream level [FGC38725,Y17712,Y21722]?

For answering better all these questions perhaps these Italian geneticists, beyond so many Africans and Arabs, could have tested also some Italians, not only Marchesi (at the level of Sexton: true R-V88*), but also others I have been studying and publishing in these years.

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