About the R-Z2103/Z2105+ subclades


Posts: 1071
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- S12460 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:45 am
(1)

These are the samples tested by Geno 2.0 which for the "Morley's spreadsheet" would be the ancestors of L51+: 26483, N10795, N112959, N113118, N114022, N53795, N79525, N81217, N9475
About the sample N10795 (Carnevali, Italy) I wrote on "anthrogenica":

"A good work, but to use with knowledge of the matter. It is a useful tool for demonstrating (or deny) my hypothesis.
To come to the node of R1b1* (the ancestor of all subclade), Morley puts Savage (Shpritz), the unique of this group tested so far. He belongs to the Jewish group of R1b1 (I have always supported introgressed from European people), that with YCAII=18-23. We don't know a Geno 2.0 of someone of the Eastern Group (that with YCAII=21-23 or 23-23). We will see.
The Jewish R1b1a2/M269*, with those three Sardinian SNPs (PF7558,PF7562,PF7563), are already excluded from the line which brings to L23*, and they too are probably introgressed from European people.
These are the people L23* (but Geno 2.0 doesn't test for Z2103 and following, except Z2110 (CTS7822)):
26483, N10795, N112959, N113118, N114022, N53795, N79525, N81217, N9475
Amongst them the Italian Carnevali (N10795), who has the SNP PF7580, which is the ancestor of the line which brings to Silver (Z2103/Z2105, L584 plus four SNPs and other two from Geno 2.0 I have signaled in other threads), then Carnevali cannot be the ancestor of R-L51.

P.S. Amongst R-L23 and R-L51 there are these SNPs now:
!!1R1b1a2a L150/PF6274 (775/775), L23/PF6534/S141 (771/775), L49/S349 (37/775)
1279 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a–1 L478 (764/771), PF6404 (770/771)
1280 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!126483, N10795, N112959, N113118, N114022, N53795, N79525, N81217, N9475
1281 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a1 M412/L51/PF6536/S167 (751/752)"

And what about the sample N79525?
This is his geno 2.0:
CTS10168+, CTS10362+, CTS10834+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11468+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2134+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, CTS3135+, CTS3331+, CTS3358+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4244+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS5577+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS623+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS7400+, CTS7659+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8243+, CTS8591+, CTS8665+, CTS8728+, CTS8980+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F115+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F1794+, F180+, F2048+, F2075+, F211+, F212+, F2142+, F2155+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F29+, F295+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F33+, F332+, F3335+, F344+, F3556+, F356+, F359+, F3692+, F378+, F4+, F47+, F506+, F556+, F63+, F640+, F647+, F652+, F671+, F719+, F82+, F83+, F93+, L132+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L265+, L278+, L350+, L388+, L389+, L407+, L468+, L470+, L471+, L478+, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L502+, L506+, L566+, L585+, L721+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L774+, L779+, L781+, L82+, M139+, M168+, M207+, M235+, M294+, M343+, M415+, M42+, M45+, M526+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P240+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P295+, P297+, PAGES00083+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF15+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2600+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2631+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5465+, PF5466+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6007+, PF601+, PF6063+, PF6091+, PF6145+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6404+, PF6409+, PF6411+, PF6424+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6443+, PF6463+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6524+, PF667+, PF719+, PF720+, PF725+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, s10+, s3+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000072+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000166+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000194+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000203+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000213+, YSC0000219+, YSC0000224+, YSC0000225+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000269+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, YSC0000294+

Posts: 1071
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- S12460 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:59 am
(2)
N79525 belongs to the "R1b Jewish project" even though he should yet demonstrate his Jewish heritage, but these are his 12 STRs values:
12 24 14 10 10-14 12 12 12 13 14 28
and there isn't any doubt that he belongs to the R-L23/L150+ Jewish cluster with only the mutation in DYS385a from 11 to 10.
This Jewish cluster belongs clearly to the R-L277+ subclade, with his DYS392=14, which is modal in it:
_b2. R1b1a2a2b: L23+ Z2103+ Z2105+ L277+
195750 Armenian Armenia R1b1a2a1
12 23 14 10 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-16 11 12 20-23 15 15 17 17 35-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 9 10 12 23-23 15 10 12 12 15 9 13 23 20 13 12 11 13 10 11 12 11
95875 Pietro Stasi, b 1854, Potenza, Italy Italy R1b1a2a1
12 23 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 14 14 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 14-15-16-18 11 12 19-23 15 16 19 17 35-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 21-24 15 10 12 12 15 8 11 22 20 13 13 11 13 11 11 12 12
234905 Grigoriy Ivanov (1935-1996), Pskovskaya region, RU Russian Federation R1b1a2a1
12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 12 12 14 27 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-19 11 11 19-23 15 17 18 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 23 19 12 12 11 13 11 11 13 12
435 Mordechai born ca. 1810, Poland or Lithuania Lithuania R1b1a2a
12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28 15 9-9 11 11 25 14 19 30 15-15-16-17 11 12 19-23 16 17 19 17 34-37 12 12 11 10 14-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 11 22 19 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 13
N97723 I Lakkis, c1850-1920 Lebanon R1b1a2a1
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 14 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 28 15-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 16 16 17 19 35-36 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 17 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 34 15 9 16 12 26 26 20 11 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 12 24 13 10 10 23 15 20 14 23 18 11 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 11 11
202270 Shammar Toga tribe, Arab from Baghdad. Iraq R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28
195191 Ghosh India R1b1a2a
12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 13 13 14 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 20 28 14-15-16-18 10 11 19-22 14 16 19 16 38-38 11 12
159189 Francois ROBERT 1606-bef.1645, Netherlands Netherlands R1b1a2a1
12 24 15 10 11-16 12 12 12 13 14 28 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-15-18 11 12 19-23 14 16 18 18 37-39 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 9 11 12 22-23 17 10 12 12 15 8 13 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 13
213878 Turkey R1b1a2
12 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 12 12 14 27 17 9-10 11 11 24 16 19 29 15-15-15-18 11 12 19-23 16 16 16 16 35-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 15 8 12 23 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
177152 Ulrich Burkholder, b1710 Switzerland R1b1a2a1
13 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 16 19 29 14-15-16-19 11 12 19-22 15 16 17 17 35-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 21-23 16 10 12 12 13 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 14 11 11 12 12

This subclade is scattered from Western Europe to India, and in the past I linked it with the Indo-European expansion. From their values we'll be able to understand where it arose and where the Jewish cluster come from.
User avatar
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:20 pm
Location: Russia
YDNA:
R1a-Z92+, YP682+
MtDNA:
H1b
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:36 pm
Gioiello wrote:(2)
_b2. R1b1a2a2b: L23+ Z2103+ Z2105+ L277+
195750 Armenian Armenia R1b1a2a1

L277-
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/arm ... ction=ysnp

Posts: 1071
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- S12460 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:32 pm
Lesla wrote:
Gioiello wrote:(2)
_b2. R1b1a2a2b: L23+ Z2103+ Z2105+ L277+
195750 Armenian Armenia R1b1a2a1

L277-
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/arm ... ction=ysnp


Lesla, I was quoting from the "ht 35 FTDNA Project" and I apologize if I was wrong, but probably you should have written to the project before.
Anyway this haplotype is interesting:
195750 Armenian Armenia R1b1a2a1
12 23 14 10 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-16 11 12 20-23 15 15 17 17 35-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 9 10 12 23-23 15 10 12 12 15 9 13 23 20 13 12 11 13 10 11 12 11
and I'd be curious to know its subclade. L277-, and more?

195750 Armenian R1b1a2a1 R-L150
L150+, L23+, L277-, L51-, L584-, L943-, L944-, L945-, L946-, M269+, P310-, P312-, U106-

Anyway to the conclusion that the Jewish cluster is L277+ I arrived with other crossed data and not only for DYS392=14. I am seeing that this sample has been tested also for the "Silver" SNPs, but why if he is L584-?
Of course a Geno 2.0 would be interesting.

Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:40 am

MtDNA:
T2
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:17 am
The Bulgarian guy N112116 is 392 = 14, but tested:

L21-, L277-, L584-, U152-, Z2103+, Z2105+

The owner of the Geno 2.0 tested N81217 was wondering if he should order L277 or will waste his money, as the other Bulgarian is not in any known brunch under Z2103,Z2105.

Posts: 1071
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- S12460 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:53 am
eastara wrote:The Bulgarian guy N112116 is 392 = 14, but tested:

L21-, L277-, L584-, U152-, Z2103+, Z2105+

The owner of the Geno 2.0 tested N81217 was wondering if he should order L277 or will waste his money, as the other Bulgarian is not in any known brunch under Z2103,Z2105.


I'll answer you more carefully later, anyway it seems to me that Karatepeoglu is R-Z2105*. Probably Bulgarians, like Italians (me), Poles etc. and others belong to the most ancient subclade. Anyway there is a SNP, intermediate between Z2105 and Z2110, found by Richard Rocca and found in all the Sardinians of the Francalacci et al. 2013. For that we all should be tested.

Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:56 pm
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:19 am
Hi
  of what is interesting to do with this indication.

12 25 14 10 14-lis 12 12 12 14 13 31 15 10-sie 11 11 25 15 19 31 15-16-18-18 10 11 19-23 16 16 18 18 37-39 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 23-24 17 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:56 pm
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:36 am
sorry for my english

Posts: 1071
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- S12460 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:19 pm
Obcy wrote:Hi
  of what is interesting to do with this indication.

12 25 14 10 14-lis 12 12 12 14 13 31 15 10-sie 11 11 25 15 19 31 15-16-18-18 10 11 19-23 16 16 18 18 37-39 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 23-24 17 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12


Obcy, where do you come from? Your haplotype is a normal R-L23, probably Z2013/Z2105* or of some subclade. You should put a number for the letters at DYS385 and DYS459.
You have some mutations is slow mutating markers, then I think that this haplotype is an Eastern one, I mean Caucasus, South-West Asia. Of course only a Geno 2.0 could say something more:

DYS464=15-16-18-18
8 11 10 8 11 11
I have
8 10 10 8 10 11
DYS557=17 against 16

For the rest nothing strange.
User avatar
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:20 pm
Location: Russia
YDNA:
R1a-Z92+, YP682+
MtDNA:
H1b
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:45 pm
YSEQ for 234905 (L277+)

Z2104+/PF7575+


Image
Next

Return to R1b-General & Misc.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest