Karachanak 2013 paper on Y in Bulgaria

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:13 pm
stoeni wrote:there are others who have different opinions for R1b in bulgaria
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.co ... mment-form

and

http://leherensuge.blogspot.com.es/2010 ... -west.html


I'm having a hard time determining what the difference of opinion is based on those links ???
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Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:41 pm
stoeni wrote:
Mikewww wrote:I see Razgrad and Varna are the two hot spots for R1b-L23*. They are right along the south bank of the Danube as it empties into the Black Sea. Does this area have anything to do with early dairy herding or anything else of noteworthiness?


seems like the celtic march down the danube river to the black sea


Which group of Celts were involved in this migration? When was this and where did it start out? Do you have links where I could read more about it?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:21 pm
Mikewww wrote:
stoeni wrote:
Mikewww wrote:I see Razgrad and Varna are the two hot spots for R1b-L23*. They are right along the south bank of the Danube as it empties into the Black Sea. Does this area have anything to do with early dairy herding or anything else of noteworthiness?


seems like the celtic march down the danube river to the black sea


Which group of Celts were involved in this migration? When was this and where did it start out? Do you have links where I could read more about it?


It was part of the La Tene migrations. If the Celts that reached Anatolia are any indication, they may have been related to the Treveri of the Moselle region of France.
Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ (Z49- Z367-), Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
Mother's Paternal: J1c3d-YSC234/Z2329+ (YSC80-), Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:34 pm
Richard Rocca wrote:I'm having a hard time determining what the difference of opinion is based on those links


It is a handy map by Maju though. Makes the distribution of L23 clear.
Last edited by JeanM on Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:06 pm
Mikewww wrote:
stoeni wrote:
Mikewww wrote:I see Razgrad and Varna are the two hot spots for R1b-L23*. They are right along the south bank of the Danube as it empties into the Black Sea. Does this area have anything to do with early dairy herding or anything else of noteworthiness?


seems like the celtic march down the danube river to the black sea


Which group of Celts were involved in this migration? When was this and where did it start out? Do you have links where I could read more about it?


Please forgive me if I'm improperly applying this quote from "the first Celts" thread.
JeanM wrote:.... There were Gaulish settlements from the push down the Danube in the 3rd century BC, but it was not densely settled by them and some of their settlements were fairly short-lived.


Did the La Tene really leave much of a genetic mark all the way to the Black Sea? It sounds like that's where we think the Galatians come from. La Tene's core is somewhere around Switzerland, right? Do we see that much L23* there? Switzerland is still more forms of L11 than it is L11-. I guess the question is which did Celts or pre-Celts go on the Danube, east or west? Probably that answer is both, but then which had the bigger impact genetically?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:22 pm
@ Mikewww

As I am sure you don't really need me to say, we would expect the Gauls to be at least P312, and most likely U152 or L21. There is a patch of U152 where they settled in central Anatolia. They seem a red herring in regards to L23*.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:45 pm
Mikewww wrote:
Mikewww wrote:
stoeni wrote:seems like the celtic march down the danube river to the black sea


Which group of Celts were involved in this migration? When was this and where did it start out? Do you have links where I could read more about it?


Please forgive me if I'm improperly applying this quote from "the first Celts" thread.
JeanM wrote:.... There were Gaulish settlements from the push down the Danube in the 3rd century BC, but it was not densely settled by them and some of their settlements were fairly short-lived.


Did the La Tene really leave much of a genetic mark all the way to the Black Sea? It sounds like that's where we think the Galatians come from. La Tene's core is somewhere around Switzerland, right? Do we see that much L23* there? Switzerland is still more forms of L11 than it is L11-. I guess the question is which did Celts or pre-Celts go on the Danube, east or west? Probably that answer is both, but then which had the bigger impact genetically?


after halstatt , the celts began an assimilation of the northern illyrian tribes as far as pannonia, they also invaded greece, but failed and the retreating celts formed the scordisci tribe in ancient moesia area.

scordisci where an illyrian/celtic mix from the north ( east austrian area ). after settling in modern serbia, the thracian triballi people ( who serbian nobility claim are original serbs ) also mixed with these scordisci , leaving there rival thracian enemies, the Bessi tribe, to be checked, these people where to eventually be relocated ( part of them ) to northern Italy by the Romans.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:46 pm
JeanM wrote:
Richard Rocca wrote:I'm having a hard time determining what the difference of opinion is based on those links


It is a handy map by Maju though. Makers the distribution of L23 clear.


I don't know if this is the one you are talking about, but I think what Maju calls R1b's substructure is a great way of looking at haplogroup diversity. We can get all wound up in the vagaries of STR diversity, but this is another point of view. You have to study the legend/colors and zoom in, but if you take a few minutes, you can see that the area from the eastern edge of the Alps to the Black Sea has a diverse mix of the branching just upstream and downstream of L51. It's Balkan mountain range and the Danube Valley.

Maju's R1b substructure based on Myres' data set.
Image

P.S. This is the kind of stuff I've been looking at for a long time. I just don't see "R1b is Cardial Wares" in it and I just don't see "R1b from the west" or "R1b is Mesolithic to Basque". To me the STR diversity reflects the same thing but that is always subject to STR wars. I'm very glad to see some data from Bulgaria. We need Romania and all of the coast line regions of the Black Sea while I'm asking.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:30 pm
To look for a west to east spread of R1b in Europe after looking at that map is just incredibly counterintuitive.
gone to a better place
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:20 pm
alan_trowel_hands wrote:To look for a west to east spread of R1b in Europe after looking at that map is just incredibly counterintuitive.


Its like the ink blots psychiatrists use, people will see what they want to see, but to me an east to west spread for L23 also seems dubious. So, understanding Rudna Glava may be more important for L23 than looking at Anatolia and the Steppe.
Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ (Z49- Z367-), Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
Mother's Paternal: J1c3d-YSC234/Z2329+ (YSC80-), Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
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