Z156*


Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 10:17 pm
"when a y expansion happens (Niall of the Nine Hostages stuff), it's probably going to be from one of the more established local y lineages."

That is why some of us think that R1b L11 expanded from their home where L11 was bottlenecked in western/central Europe.

Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 4:39 am
dartraighe wrote:"when a y expansion happens (Niall of the Nine Hostages stuff), it's probably going to be from one of the more established local y lineages."

That is why some of us think that R1b L11 expanded from their home where L11 was bottlenecked in western/central Europe.


I agree with that, but the subclades had an expansion in different places of Europe (U106, L21, U152, P312) and we don't know for ceratin the origin of the upstream haplotypes, and very likely the ages of YFull are underestimated.

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 6:02 am
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:"when a y expansion happens (Niall of the Nine Hostages stuff), it's probably going to be from one of the more established local y lineages."

That is why some of us think that R1b L11 expanded from their home where L11 was bottlenecked in western/central Europe.


I agree with that, but the subclades had an expansion in different places of Europe (U106, L21, U152, P312) and we don't know for ceratin the origin of the upstream haplotypes, and very likely the ages of YFull are underestimated.



If Yfull's TMRCA's are underestimated then P312 and U106 should be found in the Neolithic and we do not see that. Can we really say that the modern distribution of the different R1b branches is the same as the BA distribution? The ancient dna results to date has not solved a multitude of problems. All the acrimonious debates at anthrogenica and eurogenes are worthless and meaningless. In the end it will be the ancient dna that can be found that will help but will the picture ever be crystal clear?

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:41 am
The fact that an ancient dna sample Z2103 was found in the Ukraine with no Yamnaya Samara autosomal dna and an ancient dna sample Z2103 was found in Iran with no Yamnaya Samara autosoma dna is evidence that Z2103 did not originate in Samara. The special pleading by some posters that Z2103 originated in Samara is linked to the wish that L51 was also born in Samara. And there is absolutely no evidence that L51 down to and including P312 and U106 were born/originated in ant part of the Steppe.

Britain is one of the modern hotspots for P312>L21 and the BB paper showed us that L21 existed in Britain in the BA. Liguria is another hotspot for U52 but we have no ancient dna results from Liguria. We have BA results for Iberia which show that P312 was in Iberia 4,500. Iberia is the modern hotspot for DF27. Therefore the evidence suggests that P312 originated somewhere within the Iberian,Ligurian, France and the Isles regions. There are no hotspots, ancient or modern, for P312 and U106 in the Steppe.

The modern hotspots for U106 are the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, Britain, Germany and Austria and only one BA U106 has turned up so far in these hotspots. So there is a lot more ancient dna sampling to be done.

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:24 am
http://open-genomes.org/analysis/Eurasi ... match.html

The absence of P312 and U106 in ancient dna samples in the Steppe from this new dna paper is more evidence that P312 and U106 did not originate in any part of the Steppe.


I would like the scientists to show us the evidence of the P312 and U106 invasion force lined up on the Ukrainian border ready to invade western Europe 4,500 years ago. It is really that simple. Do not fob us off with autosomal dna, horses and the PIE.

Mr Eurogenes has stated that the Yamnaya got their 40% CHG from a female migration. He has also stated that the Yamnaya were M269, but P312/U106 has not shown up in Yamnaya burials in the Steppe nor CWC burials in western Europe. No BB burials were found in the Steppe.

Therefore the 32% Steppe dna found in ancient western Europeans had to come from females . There is a few R1b testers who cannot accept the fact that their Y ancestors did not come from the Steppe carrying the PIE.

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 9:41 am
According to the Yfull Y tree L151 had six sons. L151*YF13201 France origin, A8039, A8053, S1200, U106 and P312. Yfull's dates for the formation of these branches is 4,800 and the TMRCA of 4,400. All these branches had 400 years to produce offspring in the Steppe before the "massive invasion" that is proposed by some. The descendants of the offspring 4,800 ybp should be evident in the Steppe population today but it is not there.

It is true that none of these branches have shown up in the Neolithic western Europe graves but they have not shown up in Neolithic Steppe graves either. When the samples are made public showing the earliest form of these six branches in the Steppe then the Steppe origin for P312,U106, S1200 etc. will be done and dusted.


https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L151/

Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 12:27 pm
dartraighe wrote:
According to the Yfull Y tree L151 had six sons. L151*YF13201 France origin,



YF13201 is Paolo Amerighi from a noble family from Siena and his family is living in Tuscany from pretty one thousand years. Even though it is possible that his family is of German origin, that should be demonstrated. He is positive for 4 SNPs out of the 12 at this level, negative for 3 and very likely he is testing the 5 no calls from his Big Y at Yseq. I offered him the test, but after he didn't say nothing to me, thus I think that he is testing at his expense. I'd offer the test because that also his haplotype may have come from Tuscany as very likely the oldest ones like my R-L23-Z2110 and the oldest R-L51-PF7589 is also a likely possibility.

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 12:42 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:
According to the Yfull Y tree L151 had six sons. L151*YF13201 France origin,



YF13201 is Paolo Amerighi from a noble family from Siena and his family is living in Tuscany from pretty one thousand years. Even though it is possible that his family is of German origin, that should be demonstrated. He is positive for 4 SNPs out of the 12 at this level, negative for 3 and very likely he is testing the 5 no calls from his Big Y at Yseq. I offered him the test, but after he didn't say nothing to me, thus I think that he is testing at his expense. I'd offer the test because that also his haplotype may have come from Tuscany as very likely the oldest ones like my R-L23-Z2110 and the oldest R-L51-PF7589 is also a likely possibility.



I think that you are making a mistake because YF13201 has a French flag. And if he broke up the 12 YSNPs of L151 they would have split the L151 tree. YF13201 is positive for the 12 YSNPs and I am almost certain of it. The most important point is that he is from France and is L151*.

If you have the ancestral markers for Z2110 then you are probably correct that your family is the earliest of this branch. You can check it out at semargl.me. You can also clear your haplotype at semargl.me and search with your off modal markers using zero in the GD dialog box. I can bring up those closest to me with just three YSTR markers.

Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 1:41 pm
dartraighe wrote:I think that you are making a mistake because YF13201 has a French flag. And if he broke up the 12 YSNPs of L151 they would have split the L151 tree. YF13201 is positive for the 12 YSNPs and I am almost certain of it. The most important point is that he is from France and is L151*.


Dartraighe, you know me from many years and I know Paolo Amerighi from so long. He put a French flag because he believes, through his paper trails, to descend from Theuderich from Narbonne as his Amerighi family from Siena, but he is also who believed to descend from King David. Read many posts in this blog I wrote about that.
If I said that he is positive for 4 SNPs negative for 3 and no calls at 5 it is because I have his data from Big Y and YFull. And he doesn't match the R-L11 from aDNA from Germany, even though a German origin of his family is likely, also for his noble origin, but I think also that some Tuscan groom may have served his Longobard ancestress. I am waiting for data from aDNA, when Mr Dritte Reich will test them (rather than throw them in the garbage).

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 3:59 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:I think that you are making a mistake because YF13201 has a French flag. And if he broke up the 12 YSNPs of L151 they would have split the L151 tree. YF13201 is positive for the 12 YSNPs and I am almost certain of it. The most important point is that he is from France and is L151*.


Dartraighe, you know me from many years and I know Paolo Amerighi from so long. He put a French flag because he believes, through his paper trails, to descend from Theuderich from Narbonne as his Amerighi family from Siena, but he is also who believed to descend from King David. Read many posts in this blog I wrote about that.
If I said that he is positive for 4 SNPs negative for 3 and no calls at 5 it is because I have his data from Big Y and YFull. And he doesn't match the R-L11 from aDNA from Germany, even though a German origin of his family is likely, also for his noble origin, but I think also that some Tuscan groom may have served his Longobard ancestress. I am waiting for data from aDNA, when Mr Dritte Reich will test them (rather than throw them in the garbage).


If he is not positive for the 12 YSNPs at the L151 level then why did Yfull put him in the tree as L151* under L151? His YDNA test must have been of very poor quality. You say that you have his BAM file results and that he is negative for three YSNPs. Are you able to make them public? The no-calls are a problem for him due to the fact that his dna sample was really bad I think.

YF13201 should get one of his cousins to take an FGC Y-Elite test to find out if indeed he is negative for those three YSNPs at the L151 level and also to find out about the 5 YSNPs that he had no calls for. It is important for all of us who are L151 if his dna breaks up the L151 bottleneck.


I sent 32 of my YSNPs from my Big Y test to YSEQ and they accepted 24 of them. That does not mean that those YSNPs are not quality SNPs. I don't think YSEQ can help him.
PreviousNext

Return to R-U106

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron