J-M365 in Marko Heinila's latest J1 tree

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:13 am
I see that although Marko Heinila's J1 tree is based on STR markers, nevertheless it does respect what is known about SNPs.

http://genogenea.com/files/heinila-111-j1-20130202.pdf

The one J-M365 in the tree, 73612 Portugal, branches a massive 7865 years ago from the J1-Z1842 group, as well as from me and another Z1842- Z1828+.

I'm not sure what to conclude from that. It certainly supports Ricardo's belief that the origin of J1 M365 is in the far northeast range of J1, towards the Caspian Sea.

Regards,
Jim
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Posts: 227
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:10 pm
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YDNA:
J1b M365+ J1a ISOGG
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H1ao1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:57 pm
Yes Jim, a curious result.
I wrote a message in another forum some weeks ago:

J1 is composed of a bushy sequence of branching SNPs since the most ancient and basal types like Z2223 (only two FTDNA SNP confirmed cases as january/2013) or ramifying even before some pre-J1 M267 cases, upstream of J-M267 like the IJ M429 found in Iran in 2012 (Grugni et al) still present in minor frequencies probably closer to J than to I haplogroup. So J1 represents a continuum of SNPs distributed in the same space and geography since its origins in the same places where it slowly evolved and survived in small frequencies in this source cradle(Caucasus-North Iran-Eastern Anatolia) before the expansion to distant regions. The originality of J1 in comparison with the brothers clades of J2 and I is the fact that J1 is still relatively bushy at basal levels and in the same place of the birth of the IJ* and J* paragroups. In 2012 Bonnie Schrack extracted Z2223 and Z2215 from the 1000 Genomes Project.
ISOGG classified J1a M62 as a private SNP because no J1 M62 was ever found at the FTDNA database and no scientific paper could find any other M62+ since the first original singleton case had been discovered. However, one surprising case of a J1a M62+ SNP tested haplotype was reported at the YHRD database. This haplotype from Bolivia does not look like a J1 type (no DYS458.2 J1 marker). Laboratory error or a parallel mutation (homoplasy)?
Also there's a flagrant mistake in the position of J1b M365 (now J1a per ISOGG) in the article: "In search of the genetic footprints of Sumerians: a survey of Y-chromosome and mtDNA variation in the Marsh Arabs of Iraq", Nadia Al-Zahery, Ornella Semino and others. J1b M365 is upstream of PAGE8/P58 and not downstream as incorrectly written in the article. Several cases of M365(now M365.1) were tested at FTDNA and 23andMe and they are ancestral or negative to P58. The error can be either a laboratory error or a parallel mutation because we can find M365.1, M365.2, M365.3 and M365.4 in different haplogroups. This misinterpretation led to the exclusion of the operationalization of M365 where it is supposed to be found in the 2012 article "Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians", Viola Grugni, Nadia Al-Zahery and Ornella Semino. The Caspian and Northern Iranian J1 types with DYS19=15, 388=16, 390=22 389I=13, 439=11 were found only in Iran, Gilan and Mazandaran in this article (Grugni, 2012), what is another corroborating evidence of the YHRD and Sorenson (SMGF) databases. J1b M365 is found only in two small concentrated clusters: The Caspian-Northern Iranian cluster and The Western Iberian-Portuguese Empire cluster. The two clusters are revealing a close 17/16 match at YHRD:
19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385 438 439 437 448 456 458 635 ygatah4
15 13 29 22 10 11 13 12,20 10 11 14 20 15 18.2 21 10 Rasht, Iran [Gilaki]
15 13 29 22 10 11 13 12,19 10 11 14 20 15 18.2 21 10 Mato Grosso do Sul, Brazil
M365 type also presents a pretty rare match involving a relatively close match between a cluster of Iranian haplotypes and a cluster of Western European (Western Iberian - Brazilian) haplotypes with a calculated TMRCA circa de 2000 years, what is a historical connection related to the time of the Fall of the Roman Empire in Western Iberia :
http://tinyurl.com/bchrs2z
The Caspian and the Atlantic J1b M365 types are individually indistinguishable from each other(at least with the YHRD or SMGF DYS markers). J1b M365.1 Western Iberian and world wide expansion seems to be related to the Portuguese ethnogenesis around the Medieval Era of 1000-1200 AD, the creation of the Portuguese State and the moving frontiers of the Portuguese Empire with the big expansion in Continental Brazil where J1b M365 is ubiquitous in small but regular frequencies in almost every Brazilian region and frontier. So the itinerary of M365 could be somehow associated to the Caspian origins and the Alborz mountain range, the Ancient Iranian Peoples of the Caspian shores, the direct passageway to the Atlantic Western Iberia can perhaps be associated with the Alans as a transporting vector across Europe, the Portuguese ethnogenesis, the Portuguese Reconquista, the Great Navigations of the Portuguese Empire as a transporting vector across the Oceans, the Brazilian Conquest and Colonization.
J1b (J1a ISOGG) M365.1 is positive to Z2215 just like the J1 DYS388=13 types now positive to Z1834. The Alarodian cluster J1 388=13 is Z1834+ and Z1842+ located with the Northeast Caucasian (Nakh–Dagestanian) languages, the extinct Hurro-Urartian languages and Armenian cases. So now Z2215 would be J1a, M365.1+ would be (J1a1), L136+(J1a2) and Z1834(J1a3) and Z2223 (J1b). J1 L87+ tested Z2215+ but we don't know if L87 is a private SNP or not.
Another interesting development in 2012 was L1189, a Northern European J1 SNP found with Z1834+ (but Z1842-), so a curious Northern European J1 SNP.

Ricardo
Y DNA - Barcelos - Minho - Portugal. Colonial Brazil
MtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal
Brazilian Portuguese Founding People
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/m365/
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Brasil/
http://j1bm365.blogspot.com.br/

Posts: 2173
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
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K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:52 am
211891 Ley John Ley m.1789 Braunton, Devon England J-M267
13 22 15 10 11-16 11 16 11 13 11 29 18 8-9 11 11 26 14 20 27 15-15-16-16 10 9 21-22 17 13 16 20 30-36 12 10 12 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 9 12 22-22 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 27 21 14 12 11 14 11 12 12 11 32 15 8 15 12 26 26 19 12 11 14 11 12 9 11 11 10 10 12 29 11 12 21 14 11 10 19 15 23 10 22 15 13 15 23 12 20 18 9 14 16 10 10 11
73612 Antonio Gomes 1635, Milhazes, Barcelos, Portugal Portugal J-M267
13 22 15 11 12-20 11 16 11 13 11 30 18 8-9 11 11 25 14 20 25 14-15-16-18 10 9 21-22 15 12 17 21 31-36 12 10 12 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 20-22 17 10 12 12 15 8 12 27 21 15 12 12 13 11 12 12 11 33 15 8 15 12 26 26 20 11 11 13 10 12 9 11 11 10 11 12 29 12 11 21 14 11 10 19 15 22 9 22 16 13 15 25 12 21 18 9 15 16 10 10 11
If Ley is M365+, between him and you there are many many thousands of years of separation.
Certainly you could see them with a Full Genome test.

Posts: 2173
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:58 am
The variance of the European J-M365 is much higher than the Iranian ones and the English sample (Ley) cannot derive from an Iranian one. Of course Portuguese belong to an unique cluster and the Iranian with the off modal DYS459=6-8 has had only a recent multistep mutation from 9 to 6.
Shahroud, Semnan, Iran (SMGF)
13 22 15 10 12 18 11 16 11 13 11 29 17.2 8 9 11 11 25 14 20 26 14 15 15 16 11 9 21 22 15 12 10 13 15 10 12 13 20 11 15 11 29 21
Abadeh, Fars, Iran (SMGF)
13 22 15 10 12 16 11 16 11 13 11 29 18.2 8 9 11 11 25 14 20 25 14 15 15 16 11 9 21 22 15 13 10 12 15 10 12 12 21 11 14 11 29 21
Tehran, Tehran, Iran (SMGF)
13 22 15 10 12 20 11 16 11 13 11 29 17.2 6 8 11 11 25 14 20 25 14 15 16 16 10 9 21 22 15 13 10 12 15 9 12 11 21 11 14 11 29 21
Ferrere, Portugal, Reunion Island (SMGF)
13 22 15 10 12 19 11 16 11 13 11 30 18.2 8 9 11 11 25 14 20 25 14 15 17 17 10 9 21 22 16 12 10 12 15 10 12 11 21 11 14 11 29 21
Gonçalves, Brazil (SMGF)
13 22 16 10 12 19 11 16 11 13 11 29 18.2 8 9 11 11 25 14 20 25 14 15 17 17 10 9 21 22 15 11 10 12 15 10 12 11 21 11 14 11 29 21
Leon, Peru (SMGF)
13 23 15 10 12 18 11 16 11 14 11 30 17.2 8 9 11 11 26 14 20 27 15 15 16 16 11 9 21 22 15 12 10 12 15 10 12 11 22 11 14 11 29 21
Oliveira, Brazil (FTDNA)
13 22 15 11 12 20 11 16 11 13 11 30 18.2 8 9 11 11 25 14 20 25 14 15 16 18 10 9 21 22 15 12 10 12 15 10 12 11 21 11 14 12 29 21
Astane - Iran (SMGF)
13 22 15 10 13 18 11 16 12 13 11 29 17.2 8 9 11 11 25 14 20 25 - - - - 11 - 21 22 15 12 10 11 15 10 12 11 20 11 14 11 29 21
Cordeiro de Melo - Brazil (SMGF)
13 22 15 10 12 19 11 16 11 13 11 29 18.2 - - 11 - 25 14 20 23 14 15 16 17 10 9 21 22 - 12 10 12 15 10 12 11 21 11 14 - - 21
I add Ley in SMGF format:
13 22 15 10 11 16 11 16 11 13 11 29 18.2 8 9 11 11 26 14 20 27 15 15 16 16 10 9 21 22 17 12 10 12 14 10 12 12 21 11 14 11 29 21
User avatar
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:53 pm
Salve Gioiello

The Portuguese-Brazilian, Iranian and the English (M365+) cases areb almost equidistant. They separated around 2000 years ago and now they form three subclusters.
http://j1bm365.blogspot.com.br/2013/11/ ... m-new.html

I tested with Full Genomes and I have more than 185 novel SNPs. J1-M365 is an old basal J1 branch, older than most derived European R1b and R1a lineages
http://www.yfull.com/tree/J1/

Magister Dixit
Y DNA - Barcelos - Minho - Portugal. Colonial Brazil
MtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal
Brazilian Portuguese Founding People
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/m365/
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Brasil/
http://j1bm365.blogspot.com.br/

Posts: 2173
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
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K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:40 pm
I didn’t reply this letter of Ricardo Costa de Oliveira, and of course he is right in saying that the date that YFull gives about the separation of the Iranian line belonging to his subclade at 6100 years has to be corrected because there are 26 SNPs in common to be counted

• J-FGC6031 FGC6080 * FGC6125 * FGC6156+79 SNPs formed 14600 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybpinfo
o J-FGC6031*
 id:YF06756GBR [GB-DEV]
o J-Y19467FGC6040 * FGC6109 * FGC6097+23 SNPs formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybpinfo
 J-Y19467*
 id:YF11239IRN [IR-21]

FGC6035 * FGC6095 * FGC6111+6 SNPs formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 1250 ybpinfo
 id:YF04781PRT [PT-13]
 id:YF01554PRT [PT-03]



but, as he says, there is no demonstration that his Bazilian line old 300 years descends from the Portuguese line old 1250 years (even though we may accept that a link there is), so there is no demonstration that a line separated 2500 years ago may link these Portugueses to these Iranians thorough an Alan descent. But let that other samples are tested and above all that YFull ends its work (I may you note that there are very old lines in Western Europe which have to be explained). But now we have our friend becoming an author of peer reviewd papers (The Eastern side of the Westernmost Europeans: Insights from subclades within Y-chromosome haplogroup J-M304 Licínio Manco, Joana Albuquerque, Maria Francisca Sousa, Rui Martiniano, Ricardo Costa de Oliveira, Sofia Marques, Verónica Gomes, António Amorim, Luís Alvarez and Maria João Prata Version of Record online: 29 NOV 2017 | DOI: 10.1002/ajhb.23082), thus I would ask him some questions.
1) I have always suspected that these papers, with a known agenda, above all from researchers of Iberian origin, were sponsored from a very rich man and National Geographic (with some links with another Semite field), and Ricardo could answer if there is something true in this supsect of mine.
2) The authors say that some of these lines of J1 and J2 would be linked with Jews and Phoenicians, not only resuscitating the long discredited Cohen Modal Haplotype, but also using as terminal SNPs some SNPs so old that it is sure now after the aDNA that no hg. J was in Middle East then:


J-L26CTS10711/PF5109 * L26/PAGE55/S57/PF5110/PAGES00055 * PF5106+24 SNPsformed 18300 ybp, TMRCA 16300 ybpinfo

J-M67Z7562/S23034/FGC3285 * CTS6372/PF5130 * Z2241/CTS5535/PF5129+10 SNPsformed 14700 ybp, TMRCA 12400 ybpinfo

J-L24Z396 * Z426/PF5314 * PF5296/F1900+38 SNPsformed 15500 ybp, TMRCA 13900 ybpinfo

J-M241Z605 * Z2528 * Z2524/S13645+43 SNPsformed 13800 ybp, TMRCA 9900 ybpinfo

Only after an answer and an interest of some of you I’ll waste my time in demonstrating that at the deepest analysis. I live in a house at 8° and not in the Brazilian sunshine.

Regards to you all, Gio

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