New DNA Papers

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 6:45 pm
When certain posters ask for the evidence of L51, L11, P312 and U106 in ancient dna samples from the Steppe they are offered a load of hogwash about Steppe autosomal dna. There is no correlation between YDNA and autosomal dna. We know this because those who say that CHG was not found in western Europe until the BA can not deny that the G and J haplogroups found in Neolithic graves in western Europe were from the Caucasus. So we have YDNA from the Caucasus but without CHG! Western Europeans having Steppe dna is not proof that P312 and U106 came from the Steppe. The G and I haplogroups that were found in BB graves have also got Steppe dna.

We are told often enough that the CWC is not the ancestor of the BBC and yet the CWC are alleged to have 75% Steppe dna. Steppe dna in the CWC= R1a but Steppe dna in the BBC =R1b. Another example of the twisted logic of some posters on other forums.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:09 am
If R1b and R1a came from the Ukraine en masse in the BA why have they so little Ukrainian autosomal dna? And R1b and R1a should be mixed in CWC and BBC. There is something wrong with the whole theory. We are still waiting for the earliest U106 and P312 ancient dna samples in western Ukraine.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.ie/2018/03/on ... eaker.html
CWC_Germany

Yamnaya_Samara,64.8
Barcin_N,19.6
Blatterhole_HG,11.8
Narva_Lithuania,2
Ukraine_Mesolithic,1.8

[1] distance%=3.2783

CWC_Sweden

Yamnaya_Samara,60.8
Barcin_N,26.2
Blatterhole_HG,10
Narva_Lithuania,3

Beaker_Britain

Yamnaya_Samara,52.8
Barcin_N,26.8
Blatterhole_HG,17.6
Ukraine_Mesolithic,2.8

[1] distance%=2.3366

Beaker_Central_Europe

Yamnaya_Samara,43.4
Barcin_N,37.2
Blatterhole_HG,16
Ukraine_Mesolithic,3.4

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:03 pm
Mr Eurogenes blog made a mistake with the BB genomes. If the ancestor of the BB came from the Ukraine around 5,000 ybp, it should be Yamnaya_Ukraine instead of Yamnaya_Samara.

Beaker_Britain

Yamnaya_Samara,52.8
Barcin_N,26.8
Blatterhole_HG,17.6
Ukraine_Mesolithic,2.8

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 5:38 am
Cultural hitchhiking and competition between patrilineal kin groups explain the post-Neolithic Y-chromosome bottleneck

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-04375-6
Abstract
"In human populations, changes in genetic variation are driven not only by genetic processes, but can also arise from cultural or social changes. An abrupt population bottleneck specific to human males has been inferred across several Old World (Africa, Europe, Asia) populations 5000–7000 BP. Here, bringing together anthropological theory, recent population genomic studies and mathematical models, we propose a sociocultural hypothesis, involving the formation of patrilineal kin groups and intergroup competition among these groups. Our analysis shows that this sociocultural hypothesis can explain the inference of a population bottleneck. We also show that our hypothesis is consistent with current findings from the archaeogenetics of Old World Eurasia, and is important for conceptions of cultural and social evolution in prehistory."

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 5:56 am
dartraighe wrote:Cultural hitchhiking and competition between patrilineal kin groups explain the post-Neolithic Y-chromosome bottleneck

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-04375-6
Abstract
"In human populations, changes in genetic variation are driven not only by genetic processes, but can also arise from cultural or social changes. An abrupt population bottleneck specific to human males has been inferred across several Old World (Africa, Europe, Asia) populations 5000–7000 BP. Here, bringing together anthropological theory, recent population genomic studies and mathematical models, we propose a sociocultural hypothesis, involving the formation of patrilineal kin groups and intergroup competition among these groups. Our analysis shows that this sociocultural hypothesis can explain the inference of a population bottleneck. We also show that our hypothesis is consistent with current findings from the archaeogenetics of Old World Eurasia, and is important for conceptions of cultural and social evolution in prehistory."


I thank you, but unfortunately the paper consider only the samples of aDNA tested, and Italy isn't tested so far beyond 6 samples, whereas other countries have hundreds, thus this paper doesn't demonstrate anything about the origin of R1b1 and subclades. They belong to the Jewish universities of Stanford (in this case) and Harvard etc.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 6:14 am
Ahahahah, also a stupid yankee at last understands!

Samuel Andrews has left a new comment on the post "What's Maykop (or Iran) got to do with it?":

R1b p297 and r1b v88 have been found in Mesolithic Europe. That's all the evidence needed to make a strong argument r1b m269 originated in Europe.

Wait till we get a decent collection of ehg y DNA. R1b m269 will pop up.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 11:40 am
Gioiello wrote:Ahahahah, also a stupid yankee at last understands!

Samuel Andrews has left a new comment on the post "What's Maykop (or Iran) got to do with it?":

R1b p297 and r1b v88 have been found in Mesolithic Europe. That's all the evidence needed to make a strong argument r1b m269 originated in Europe.

Wait till we get a decent collection of ehg y DNA. R1b m269 will pop up.



My first post here in this forum about the M269 bottleneck was in 2014. It has taken some dna experts four years to catch up.

I don't understand EHG, you mean WHG. Most R1b people ancient and modern have some WHG. I have 50% according to my FTDNA ancient origins page.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 3:08 pm
dartraighe wrote:
I don't understand EHG, you mean WHG. Most R1b people ancient and modern have some WHG. I have 50% according to my FTDNA ancient origins page.


"Wait till we get a decent collection of ehg y DNA. R1b m269 will pop up": this is what Samuel Andrews wrote not me. It seems he isn't so smart.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:22 pm
"It was a given that R1b was in the Steppes long before the various Yamnaya groups coalesced. We have the accepted origin of R (R1?) at least at Mal'ta Buret' Siberia (MA-1) around 24,000 ybp."

The poster who wrote this on another forum is wrong because the ancestors of Native Americans who crossed the Bearing Strait 13,000 years ago did not carry R1b and there was not only the one wave of NA ancestors. There were multiple waves according to all the scientific papers about the NA and no evidence of any R1b lines in the NA. That is the evidence that R1b was a more recent event in eastern Europe.

The L23 samples that were found in ancient dna in eastern Europe were not the ancestors of P312, S1200 and U106. And one has to explain how the Bronze Age R1b in western Europe had Samara autosomal dna when they and their L51 bottlenecked ancestors were not born in Samara. It had to come from Samara females.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:10 pm
dartraighe wrote:"It was a given that R1b was in the Steppes long before the various Yamnaya groups coalesced. We have the accepted origin of R (R1?) at least at Mal'ta Buret' Siberia (MA-1) around 24,000 ybp."

The poster who wrote this on another forum is wrong because the ancestors of Native Americans who crossed the Bearing Strait 13,000 years ago did not carry R1b and there was not only the one wave of NA ancestors. There were multiple waves according to all the scientific papers about the NA and no evidence of any R1b lines in the NA. That is the evidence that R1b was a more recent event in eastern Europe.

The L23 samples that were found in ancient dna in eastern Europe were not the ancestors of P312, S1200 and U106. And one has to explain how the Bronze Age R1b in western Europe had Samara autosomal dna when they and their L51 bottlenecked ancestors were not born in Samara. It had to come from Samara females.


Dartraighe, we have to be cautious about all that.
1) Mal’ta boy is certain, but he was only a dead end line, not our line.
2) That R1 was in central Siberia 25000 years ago is possible, above all to me that don’t believe to the “Out of Africa” (a “Jewish-Nigger conspiracy” to me), thus an origin of Y in East Asia as Shi Huang thinks is likable.
3) That R1 wasn’t in NA doesn’t mean anything about its Asian origin in Central Siberia, because NA arrived in America 13000 years ago but stayed thousands of years in Beringia.
4) We don’t know the expansion of the oldest R1 lines, except that 14000 years ago they were at Villabruna and 12000 years ago at Les Iboussiéres.
5) What happened later is clear to me, and will be clearer when aDNA from Italy is published. We’ll understand also all the pathways. Anyway Western Europe.
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