Who's your (proto) daddy Western Europeans?

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:31 pm
dartraighe wrote:One poster at anthrogenica persists with this nonsense.
"Firstly because you are oblivious of autosomal DNA connected to P312: you don't have P312 without some level of autosomal Steppe Admixture. Secondly because older subclades above P312 are found in the Steppe, nowhere else. There is therefore a direct link between P312 and the Pontic Steppe."


Gioiello
Which subclades above P312 were found in the Steppe, L51, L151, L11? What is he raving on about? He must have access to some ancient dna samples that no scientist has made public yet or else he is hallucinating. A direct link between P312 and the Steppe is BS because P312 has not been found in the Steppe yet.


I wonder why you pay attention to all these morons with no knowledge of genetics and all the rest: at Yamnaya there are some subclades of R-L23, just the ancestors of the R-L23 found in Eastern Europe and from there in Asia and Middle East, and not all the R-L23 descended from these haplotypes, as I think having demonstrated. If they would want to speak of the oldest haplotypes found so far they should say that they are Villabruna (R1b1) 14000 ya and Les Iboussiéres (R1* ) 12000 ya. These are the only facts... and we are waiting that Mr Reich tests samples from 6000 to 5000 ya from Italy.

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:41 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:One poster at anthrogenica persists with this nonsense.
"Firstly because you are oblivious of autosomal DNA connected to P312: you don't have P312 without some level of autosomal Steppe Admixture. Secondly because older subclades above P312 are found in the Steppe, nowhere else. There is therefore a direct link between P312 and the Pontic Steppe."


Gioiello
Which subclades above P312 were found in the Steppe, L51, L151, L11? What is he raving on about? He must have access to some ancient dna samples that no scientist has made public yet or else he is hallucinating. A direct link between P312 and the Steppe is BS because P312 has not been found in the Steppe yet.


I wonder why you pay attention to all these morons with no knowledge of genetics and all the rest: at Yamnaya there are some subclades of R-L23, just the ancestors of the R-L23 found in Eastern Europe and from there in Asia and Middle East, and not all the R-L23 descended from these haplotypes, as I think having demonstrated. If they would want to speak of the oldest haplotypes found so far they should say that they are Villabruna (R1b1) 14000 ya and Les Iboussiéres (R1* ) 12000 ya. These are the only facts... and we are waiting that Mr Reich tests samples from 6000 to 5000 ya from Italy.


We need more samples from France because France is the most likely origin place for P312. Yfull's formed date for P312 is 4,800 ybp. With no P312 being found in the Steppe at all it is safe to assume that P312 originated close to the hotspots of L21, DF27 and U152. The earliest BB in Iberia suggests that the culture spread from Iberia through France to Germany.

L51 was anonymous in western Europe until the birth of the BBC because L51 was going through a bottleneck for around 1,200 years according to Yfull's dates. That is the reason that it is impossible to find any ancient remains that belong to the bottleneck period. Needles in a haystack would be an understatement.

The scientists need to explain how one L11 family was able to change the autosomal dna of western Europe by 50% because the present evidence from ancient dna samples does not show a massive R1b male migration from any part of the Steppe.

Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
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MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:06 am
dartraighe wrote:We need more samples from France because France is the most likely origin place for P312. Yfull's formed date for P312 is 4,800 ybp. With no P312 being found in the Steppe at all it is safe to assume that P312 originated close to the hotspots of L21, DF27 and U152. The earliest BB in Iberia suggests that the culture spread from Iberia through France to Germany.

L51 was anonymous in western Europe until the birth of the BBC because L51 was going through a bottleneck for around 1,200 years according to Yfull's dates. That is the reason that it is impossible to find any ancient remains that belong to the bottleneck period. Needles in a haystack would be an understatement.

The scientists need to explain how one L11 family was able to change the autosomal dna of western Europe by 50% because the present evidence from ancient dna samples does not show a massive R1b male migration from any part of the Steppe.


Of course France has to be tested more, as also Maju says in his blog, but perhaps you should know that my theory says that R1b reached Iberia from Italy, and not only R-V88 with the migration of 7500 years ago but also L51 if it is older than YFull thinks (or came later to Iberia with other migrations). Anyway the oldest R-L51-PF7589 (sister clade of R-L51*) are in Tuscany. Thus let's wait that Mr Reich publishes his tests from Italy.

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:32 am
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:One poster at anthrogenica persists with this nonsense.
"Firstly because you are oblivious of autosomal DNA connected to P312: you don't have P312 without some level of autosomal Steppe Admixture. Secondly because older subclades above P312 are found in the Steppe, nowhere else. There is therefore a direct link between P312 and the Pontic Steppe."


Gioiello
Which subclades above P312 were found in the Steppe, L51, L151, L11? What is he raving on about? He must have access to some ancient dna samples that no scientist has made public yet or else he is hallucinating. A direct link between P312 and the Steppe is BS because P312 has not been found in the Steppe yet.


I wonder why you pay attention to all these morons with no knowledge of genetics and all the rest: at Yamnaya there are some subclades of R-L23, just the ancestors of the R-L23 found in Eastern Europe and from there in Asia and Middle East, and not all the R-L23 descended from these haplotypes, as I think having demonstrated. If they would want to speak of the oldest haplotypes found so far they should say that they are Villabruna (R1b1) 14000 ya and Les Iboussiéres (R1* ) 12000 ya. These are the only facts... and we are waiting that Mr Reich tests samples from 6000 to 5000 ya from Italy.



Gioiello, it is our duty to tell posters the truth. P312, U106 and S1200 were not born and did not originate in the Steppe. And there was no ethnic group known as the Kurgan or Steppe Bell Beaker people. Bell Beakers were not found in the Steppe. The false term was created by an anti-Iberian poster.

Every time a poster refers to any R1b or P312 link with Iberia the anti-Iberian P312 clan go ballistic and it is not just about the Ice Age refuge either. We have seen that down through the years. They are not willing to change even with the non existent P312,U106 and S1200 ancient dna results from any part of the Steppe. Any kind of R1b continuity in western Europe is unacceptable to the anti-Iberians and it has to do with politics and religion. They ramble on about Steppe autosomal dna because they have nothing else to go on.

Villabruna was in all probability M269 because he lived and died around the time of the birth of m269. This sample was not accepted by the anti-Iberians.

The Iranian Z2103 sample has not been accepted or approved by the anti-Iberians either.

ATP3 from Iberia was probably R1b L11 too but this sample's status was never determined nor accepted but there will be others.
Last edited by dartraighe on Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
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MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:05 am
dartraighe wrote:
Villabruna was in all probability M269 because he lived and died around the time of the birth of m269. This sample was not accepted by the anti-Iberians.

The Iranian Z2103 sample has not been accepted or approved by the anti-Iberians either.

APT3 from Iberia was probably R1b L11 too but this sample's status was never determined nor accepted but there will be others.


We have no hint for saying that Villabruna was M269 and I don't believe he were. But what people don't understand is that he was one of one tribe of R1b1*, with many lines whose only a few survived. Only these morons owners of all the labs may think that they test one person of 14000 years ago and they find by chance an R1b1*, the only one in Western Europe.
So we know from aDNA from German Bell Beakers that there were then many intermediate haplotypes of the L11 bush, only one of them survived with 12 SNPs and generated both U106 and P312 (of course with his close descendants), and of all them only one sample has survived so far: Paolo Amerighi from Siena, who could be of German origin (but I think also a Tuscan introgressed the Longobard or German pool). We are waiting for his results, because only 7 SNPs out of 12 have been tested from his Big Y (4 positive, 3 negative and 5 no calls).

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:34 am
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:
Villabruna was in all probability M269 because he lived and died around the time of the birth of m269. This sample was not accepted by the anti-Iberians.

The Iranian Z2103 sample has not been accepted or approved by the anti-Iberians either.

APT3 from Iberia was probably R1b L11 too but this sample's status was never determined nor accepted but there will be others.


We have no hint for saying that Villabruna was M269 and I don't believe he were. But what people don't understand is that he was one of one tribe of R1b1*, with many lines whose only a few survived. Only these morons owners of all the labs may think that they test one person of 14000 years ago and they find by chance an R1b1*, the only one in Western Europe.
So we know from aDNA from German Bell Beakers that there were then many intermediate haplotypes of the L11 bush, only one of them survived with 12 SNPs and generated both U106 and P312 (of course with his close descendants), and of all them only one sample has survived so far: Paolo Amerighi from Siena, who could be of German origin (but I think also a Tuscan introgressed the Longobard or German pool). We are waiting for his results, because only 7 SNPs out of 12 have been tested from his Big Y (4 positive, 3 negative and 5 no calls).


That is a good point about Villabruna. One test and one R1b and I disagree with you about Villabruna and M269 because Yfull's states M269 formed CI 95% 14,900>11,800 ybp.

Each one of these 43 single entries under P312 at Yfull represents a brother branch to L21,DF27 and U152 and not even one of them is Steppe derived. And all of them date to 4,500 ybp. They will remain single entries until they find a match who is willing to take the Big Y test or FGC test and send their BAM files to Yfull.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/

Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
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MtDNA:
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:00 pm
dartraighe wrote:
That is a good point about Villabruna. One test and one R1b and I disagree with you about Villabruna and M269 because Yfull's states M269 formed CI 95% 14,900>11,800 ybp.

Each one of these 43 single entries under P312 at Yfull represents a brother branch to L21,DF27 and U152 and not even one of them is Steppe derived. And all of them date to 4,500 ybp. They will remain single entries until they find a match who is willing to take the Big Y test or FGC test and send their BAM files to Yfull.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/


But we should stay to facts: there is no hint that Villabruna had any SNP downstream L754, but this doesn't mean that amongst his relatives of the Villabruna clan there weren't some haplotypes downstream and with some SNPs of the P297 etc line. Only if Mr Reich will test tens of samples from there we could know that, but that also Les Iboussiéres 12000 years ago and linked through his bones with samples from Balzi Rossi and Arene Candide of Liguria demonstrates, I think, that there were R1 and downstream tribes in the Alpine zone. And why Mr Reich is going to test samples from 6000 to 5000 years ago and not samples from Balzi Rossi and Arene Candide (as I am asking from so long)? Perhaps he is consulting his Kabbalah!

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:57 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:
That is a good point about Villabruna. One test and one R1b and I disagree with you about Villabruna and M269 because Yfull's states M269 formed CI 95% 14,900>11,800 ybp.

Each one of these 43 single entries under P312 at Yfull represents a brother branch to L21,DF27 and U152 and not even one of them is Steppe derived. And all of them date to 4,500 ybp. They will remain single entries until they find a match who is willing to take the Big Y test or FGC test and send their BAM files to Yfull.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/


But we should stay to facts: there is no hint that Villabruna had any SNP downstream L754, but this doesn't mean that amongst his relatives of the Villabruna clan there weren't some haplotypes downstream and with some SNPs of the P297 etc line. Only if Mr Reich will test tens of samples from there we could know that, but that also Les Iboussiéres 12000 years ago and linked through his bones with samples from Balzi Rossi and Arene Candide of Liguria demonstrates, I think, that there were R1 and downstream tribes in the Alpine zone. And why Mr Reich is going to test samples from 6000 to 5000 years ago and not samples from Balzi Rossi and Arene Candide (as I am asking from so long)? Perhaps he is consulting his Kabbalah!



The fact is that any R1b sample earlier than 4,500 ybp in western Europe is always a poor sample that cannot be resolved.

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:21 am
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:
That is a good point about Villabruna. One test and one R1b and I disagree with you about Villabruna and M269 because Yfull's states M269 formed CI 95% 14,900>11,800 ybp.

Each one of these 43 single entries under P312 at Yfull represents a brother branch to L21,DF27 and U152 and not even one of them is Steppe derived. And all of them date to 4,500 ybp. They will remain single entries until they find a match who is willing to take the Big Y test or FGC test and send their BAM files to Yfull.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/


But we should stay to facts: there is no hint that Villabruna had any SNP downstream L754, but this doesn't mean that amongst his relatives of the Villabruna clan there weren't some haplotypes downstream and with some SNPs of the P297 etc line. Only if Mr Reich will test tens of samples from there we could know that, but that also Les Iboussiéres 12000 years ago and linked through his bones with samples from Balzi Rossi and Arene Candide of Liguria demonstrates, I think, that there were R1 and downstream tribes in the Alpine zone. And why Mr Reich is going to test samples from 6000 to 5000 years ago and not samples from Balzi Rossi and Arene Candide (as I am asking from so long)? Perhaps he is consulting his Kabbalah!



The facts so far are that there is absolutely no evidence of P312 being born in any part of the Steppe. P312 originated around 3,000 BC. P312 was found in the Bell Beaker sites dated to 2,500-2,200 BC. The Steppe migration into western Europe is supposed to be around 2,500 BC, so how could the Steppe migration carry a P312 group that was not born in the Steppe. The earliest P312 has been found in Germany not in Hungary or Poland the proposed routes into western Europe for a Steppe migration.

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:03 pm
http://www.mdpi.com/2313-5778/2/1/8/htm
Constructing Masculinity through Genetic Legacies: Family Histories, Y-Chromosomes, and “Viking Identities”


Abstract:
"The contemporary popularity of genetic genealogy has been accompanied by concerns about its potential reifying of identity. This has referred in particular to ethnicity, but also to gender, with fears that looking at the past through the lens of popular genetics reinforces patriarchal views of the family and traditional heteronormative understandings of masculinity and femininity. This study investigates whether such understandings are drawn upon by male participants in a population genetics study. Discursive analysis of 128 responses to a participant motivation survey and 18 follow-up interviews explores how participants construct masculinity when discussing genetics and their own family history. It is argued that while there is some evidence for the “patriarchal” argument, a subtler form of masculine legacy creation and maintenance is the primary narrative. "
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