Haplogroup G from Caucasus of from the Italian Refugium?


Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:31 am
Last Morley spreadsheet says that so far the unique G* tested is Hollingsworth (129188) and matches a Diconti of clear Italian origin:

129188 Hollingsworth Hollingsworth G
13 23 14 10 14-14 11 12 11 13 12 29
N54069 Diconti G
13 23 14 10 14-14 11 12 12 12 12 28

We'll see next developments.
Last edited by Gioiello on Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:46 am
As the father of my cousin Monica (the mother was my father's sister: mtDNA H41a) is named De Conti and came from Veneto, Treviso province, and I have always thought for his red hairs of German origin, but he seemed so much Oetzi, I'll test soon my cousin Roberto at least for 12 markers. Who knows?

Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:46 am
Your kit number is 303065

Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:34 pm
Unfortunately Hollingsworth is G1* and not G*. Probably his FTDNA account should have been written below.

P.S And this is the note of Morley:
"Kit 129188 has 15 SNPs proposed by this tree to be at the G1 level (line 328 on page 12), but this kit lacks positive results for any ISOGG-recognised SNPs at this level".

Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:29 pm
As compensation the most ancient G2* is so far the Italian Greco [246925 Ross Giuseppe Greco, b. abt 1765 San Giovanni in Fiore], put like G2-1 for his private mutation PF5833.
User avatar
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:03 pm
Location: Canada
YDNA:
G2 PF5833
MtDNA:
H51
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:13 pm
Tony Greco Ross born 1979 Canada
James Anthony Ross born 1956 Canada
William James Anthony Ross born 1932 Fort William Ontario Canada
Phillip Anthony Ross born Phillip Anthony Greco born 1904 Fort William Ontario Canada
George Ross born Rosario Greco 23 Oct 1857 in Colosimi, Cosenza, Italy
Filippo Antonio Greco born 16 July 1824 in Colosimi
Alessandro Greco born 10 July 1795 in Colosimi
Giuseppe Greco born abt 1765 San Giovanni in Fiore

Our family believes we are of Greek origin, perhaps originally from the Greek Colonies in Sicily. There was a group of people living in the western edge of Sicily called the Elymians who were left undisturbed by the Romans (and genetically undisturbed?), but I think they were Phoenician colonies. Findings by family tree DNA, Ancestry DNA and the Genographic project all point to our DNA coming from somewhere in the middle east originally (Anatolia/Turkey/Caucasus)

On family tree DNA there are a few individuals who seem to be a genetic match. One in particular, Schiro, was from Sicily and we had the same paternal ancestor approximately 500 years ago.

I have meet the Grecos in Colosimi. They are descendants of Saverio Greco, brother of Rosario Greco. Saverio was born in 1855 and rather then immigrate to North America, he chose to remain in Italy. They may be available for further testing if anyone is interested.

Greco can mean Greek or it can mean guileful or crafty (attributes that were though to be associated with the Greeks). Not sure if I have contributed anything to the conversation but I can supply a papertrail that confirms our Italian roots to 1795. Soon I will have Giuseppe's birth record.
De Colosimi e de iumare portaccende ma un de pigliare: delle cose di Colosimi e delle fiumare è meglio non prendere nulla

Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:37 am
Answering to a post of mine on eng.molgen, where I quoted his sample like the most ancient G2* found so far, Greco (Ross) answered:
"Our family believes we are of Greek origin, perhaps originally from the Greek Colonies in Sicily. There was a group of people living in the western edge of Sicily called the Elymians who were left undisturbed by the Romans (and genetically undisturbed?), but I think they were Phoenician colonies. Findings by family tree DNA, Ancestry DNA and the Genographic project all point to our DNA coming from somewhere in the middle east originally (Anatolia/Turkey/Caucasus).
On family tree DNA there are a few individuals who seem to be a genetic match. One in particular, Schiro, was from Sicily and we had the same paternal ancestor approximately 500 years ago".
But the distance between his haplotype and the others is abysmal: at least 67 out 94 markers. This is with a G2c (G-M377/M283) of the Jewish pool
PYM77 Ross (G-PF5721) San Giovanni in Fiore, Italy
11 23 16 11 14 16 11 12 11 14 11 32 19 9 9 11 12 23 16 20 29 10 10 13 14 11 9 20 20 15 15 16 18 35 35 11 10 12 12 12 20 11 15 11 11 13 31 20 11 8 15 16 8 12 10 8 11 10 21 22 17 10 12 12 16 8 20 21 12 11 13 10 11 11 12 9 11 15 9 15 11 12 11 13 11 10 13 11 11 12 21 27 21 12
X6UPU Davis Dzialoszyn, Poland
13 23 15 10 13 16 11 12 11 14 11 32 19 8 9 11 11 24 16 21 28 13 14 15 15 10 11 20 20 17 16 15 16 32 35 12 10 null 12 11 12 22 12 16 13 11 18 31 23 11 8 16 16 8 11 10 8 12 10 21 22 14 10 11 12 14 9 19 21 13 11 13 10 11 11 12 9 11 15 9 15 11 11 10 12 11 10 13 11 11 12 21 27 20 12
And also the closest to him, Schirò from Sicily, even though seems close, have many mutations in the first series (8 12 10 8 11 10/8 11 11 8 11 11) that could mean also a separation of thousands of years which should be ascertained by a SNP test:
1 246925 G2-P287>M3115
11 23 16 11 14 16 11 12 11 14 11 32 19 9 9 11 12 23 16 20 29 10 10 13 14 11 9 20 20 15 15 16 18 35 35 11 10 11 8 15 16 8 12 10 8 11 10 12 21 22 17 10 12 12 16 8 11 20 21 13 12 11 13 10 11 11 12 29 15 8 15 12 21 27 21 11 11 13 13 12 9 11 11 10 11 12 31 11 12 20 15 11 10 24 17 20 14 26 16 12 15 26 12 20 18 12 14 18 9 12 11
2 N35198 G2-P287>M3115
11 23 15 11 14 16 11 12 11 13 11 31 19 9 9 11 12 24 16 20 29 10 10 13 14 11 9 20 20 15 15 16 17 35 36 11 10 11 8 15 16 8 11 11 8 11 11 12 21 22 17 10 12 12 14 8 11 20 21 14 12 11 13 10 11 11 12 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 12 31 12 13 21 15 11 - - - - - - - - - - - 21 - - - - - 12 -

Of course I may say much:
1) Elymians were probably an Italic people linked to Ligurians.
2) To carry surname Greco (Greek) and Schirò (strong man in Greek) doesn't mean to be of Greek origin (or Albanian, as Schirò is used also from Arbereshet), even though it is a possibility to investigate further, as the surname Mattei doesn't mean a Jewish origin or Guidi a German one.
3) I have many doubt that between the MRCA of Greco and Schirò there are only 500 years.
4) If the origin is elsewhere from Italy we should find some close haplotypes there, that it seems not having happened so far.
5) Of course also my hypothesis of an old origin of G2* in the Mediterranean Islands due to the commerce of obsidian I think merits to be done.
6) Of course about the reliability of FTDNA and National Geographic I have many doubts, and all my activity of these last years is here to demonstrate that.

Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:20 am
Reading the presence of hg. G in Italy through the presence of the PF SNPs seems that Sardinia (and ancient Italy) has:
G but not G1
G2 till G2a2a1b1a (Oetzi)
G2a2b till G2a2b1 (but Tuscany till G-Y6221: NA20767 TSI)
G2a2b2 till G2a2b2a1a1 (x G2a2b2a1a2), G2a2b2a1a2... (but Tuscany till G2a2b2a1b1a2a* :NA20536 TSI) (xG-Z1823)
Perhaps not G2a2b2a1c nor G2a2b2a2 L694, G2a2b2a3 V2761/M278
G2a2b2b
G2b* but not the subclades M377 and M383 (but present with very old haplotypes elsewhere in Italy)

Thus Greco is G2b*.

Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:40 pm
Boed Marres Are M3115 or PF5721.2 negative, not found (or not tested) ?

Gioiello Tognoni This is his Geno 2.0 from SemarglDNA:
246925 Italy G2-P287>M3115
CTS1013+, CTS10362+, CTS10721+, CTS10834+, CTS109+, CTS11228+, CTS11331+, CTS11358+, CTS11468+, CTS11529+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11911+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1613+, CTS1996+, CTS2125+, CTS2126+, CTS2251+, CTS2271+, CTS2624+, CTS282+, CTS3331+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS373+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4264+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS4479+, CTS4740+, CTS4761+, CTS5317+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS5640+, CTS5699+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS623+, CTS6316+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6807+, CTS6907+, CTS692+, CTS7269+, CTS7400+, CTS7659+, CTS7674+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8152+, CTS8243+, CTS8591+, CTS8665+, CTS8717+, CTS8980+, CTS9593+, CTS9828+, CTS9885+, F1046+, F1189+, F1209+, F1239+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1496+, F1647+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F2048+, F2075+, F2142+, F2155+, F2302+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F2985+, F2993+, F3070+, F3111+, F3136+, F3198+, F3220+, F3226+, F3335+, F3344+, F3359+, F3536+, F3556+, F3692+, F719+, L116+, L132+, L154+, L156+, L204+, L269+, L350+, L468+, L470+, L496+, L498+, L520+, L521+, L522+, L523+, L524+, L566+, L605+, L769+, L781+, L89+, M139+, M168+, M201+, M213+, M235+, M294+, M299+, M42+, M89+, M94+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P257+, P287+, P316+, PAGES00026+, PAGES00081+, PAGES00094+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF15+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2600+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2631+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF2788+, PF2789+, PF2790+, PF2796+, PF2800+, PF2802+, PF2803+, PF2804+, PF2808+, PF2809+, PF2810+, PF2812+, PF2816+, PF2819+, PF2820+, PF2821+, PF2835+, PF2837+, PF2839+, PF2844+, PF2857+, PF2858+, PF2859+, PF2860+, PF2861+, PF2865+, PF2866+, PF2867+, PF2868+, PF2869+, PF2871+, PF2872+, PF2876+, PF2877+, PF2878+, PF2879+, PF2880+, PF2881+, PF2884+, PF2888+, PF2889+, PF2891+, PF2894+, PF2898+, PF2909+, PF2910+, PF2915+, PF2918+, PF292+, PF3007+, PF3045+, PF3046+, PF3050+, PF3052+, PF3053+, PF3054+, PF3057+, PF3061+, PF3063+, PF3067+, PF3068+, PF3069+, PF3071+, PF3075+, PF3076+, PF3080+, PF3119+, PF3123+, PF3125+, PF316+, PF325+, PF3265+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5721+, PF5833+, PF601+, PF667+, PF719+, PF720+, PF725+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, U17+, U2+, U20+, U21+, U3+, U33+, U7+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V241+, V250+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000227+,
CTS3357-, F3998-, L183-, L247-, L595-, L72-, M283-, M287-, M377-, P15-, PAGES00006-, PF5533-, PF5538-, PF5551-, PF5553-, PF5569-, PF5577-, PF5682-, PF5685-, PF5691-, PF5696-, PF5698-, PF5706-, PF5708-, PF5711-, PF5713-, PF5716-, PF5722-, PF5730-, PF5731-, PF5746-, PF5748-, PF5752-, PF5753-, PF5758-, PF5759-, PF5762-, PF5763-, PF5765-, PF5769-, PF5770-, PF5774-, PF5780-, PF5784-, PF5789-, PF5796-, PF5798-, PF5807-, PF5808-, PF5817-, PF5819-, PF5824-, PF5826-, PF5831-, PF5838-, PF5843-,

Boed Marres What means G2-P287>M3115. We sought but did not found?
This is the only mention here.

Gioiello Tognoni For the Ray Bank's "Extended G tree" he could be G2c:
• • • G2c two values of 10 or less in DYS464

Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:30 pm
That the haplotype is rooted in Italy is demonstrated also from Marino, found on SMGF and put on Ysearch:

7E3ET Marino Resina-Ercolano, Naples, Italy
11 23 15 11 14 16 11 12 11 14 11 32 18 9 9 11 12 24 16 20 29 10 10 13 14 11 9 20 20 15 11 10 11 15
3W5B9 Schiro Sicily
11 23 15 11 14 16 11 12 11 13 11 31 19 9 9 11 12 24 16 20 29 10 10 13 14 11 9 20 20 15 15 16 17 35 36 11 10 12 12 12 13 21 11 15 11 12 14 31 21 11 8 15 16 8 11 11 8 11 11 21 22 17 10 12 12 14 8 20 21 12 11 13 10 11 11 12
BRTAR Gill Unknown
11 23 15 11 14 17 11 12 11 13 11 31 18 9 9 11 12 24 16 20 30 10 10 13 14 11 9 20 20 15 15 16 17 35 35 11 10 12 11 14 11 8 15 16 8 11 10 8 11 11 21 22 18 10 12 12 16 8 21 21 12 11 13 10 11 11 12 PYM77 Ross (G-PF5721) San Giovanni in Fiore, Italy
11 23 16 11 14 16 11 12 11 14 11 32 19 9 9 11 12 23 16 20 29 10 10 13 14 11 9 20 20 15 15 16 18 35 35 11 10 12 12 12 20 11 15 11 11 13 31 20 11 8 15 16 8 12 10 8 11 10 21 22 17 10 12 12 16 8 20 21 12 11 13 10 11 11 12 9 11 15 9 15 11 12 11 13 11 10 13 11 11 12 21 27 21 12
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