age of J2a in Europe, origin J2a-L26

Any discussions about this haplogroup

Moderator: napobo3

User avatar
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:15 pm
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:23 pm
No J2a in pre-antiquity Europe?
Recently I posted about some thoughts I have about a revised J2a origin: Ancient Y-DNA discussion: no J2a in pre-antiquity Europe? Note that this is mainly based on a few ancient European Y-DNA results, combined with the known modern phylogeny and distribution and as well some archaeological facts. I know other conclusions can be made and I'm interested on alternative interpretations of the known facts. Main conclusions (for more see the link):
  • G2a possibly with some other G and E subgroups are the oldest surviving Levantine Haplogroups.
  • J2a did not reach the Eastern Mediterranean area before the Bronze Age (3,300 BC), maybe even not before the Iron Age (1,200 BC)
  • J2a-L26 was somewhere in or near the Iranian plateau. His Y-ancestors probably came from the South (Gulf Oasis) or another refugium nearby.
DNA/Admixture Central Europe (Alps, Tyrol, Dolomites, Raetia); Y-DNA J2a-L1064, J2a-L210, R1a-M17, R1b-U106 (L48-); mtDNA J1b1b, J1c1d, U5a2b2, U5b1b1. Projects : J2-M172, J2a-PF5197, Alpine DNA, ISOGG Wiki

Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:26 pm
Location: Paris region
YDNA:
G2a2b2a1b1a2a-CT4803
MtDNA:
H2a2a1 (rCRS)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:19 am
ChrisR wrote:No J2a in pre-antiquity Europe?
Recently I posted about some thoughts I have about a revised J2a origin: Ancient Y-DNA discussion: no J2a in pre-antiquity Europe? Note that this is mainly based on a few ancient European Y-DNA results, combined with the known modern phylogeny and distribution and as well some archaeological facts. I know other conclusions can be made and I'm interested on alternative interpretations of the known facts. Main conclusions (for more see the link):
  • G2a possibly with some other G and E subgroups are the oldest surviving Levantine Haplogroups.
  • J2a did not reach the Eastern Mediterranean area before the Bronze Age (3,300 BC), maybe even not before the Iron Age (1,200 BC)
  • J2a-L26 was somewhere in or near the Iranian plateau. His Y-ancestors probably came from the South (Gulf Oasis) or another refugium nearby.


ChrisR wrote:No J2a in pre-antiquity Europe?
Recently I posted about some thoughts I have about a revised J2a origin: Ancient Y-DNA discussion: no J2a in pre-antiquity Europe? Note that this is mainly based on a few ancient European Y-DNA results, combined with the known modern phylogeny and distribution and as well some archaeological facts. I know other conclusions can be made and I'm interested on alternative interpretations of the known facts. Main conclusions (for more see the link):
  • G2a possibly with some other G and E subgroups are the oldest surviving Levantine Haplogroups.
  • J2a did not reach the Eastern Mediterranean area before the Bronze Age (3,300 BC), maybe even not before the Iron Age (1,200 BC)
  • J2a-L26 was somewhere in or near the Iranian plateau. His Y-ancestors probably came from the South (Gulf Oasis) or another refugium nearby.


We mustn't forget the history of the Mesopotamia (Sumer, Akkad, Babylone, Assyria) and the Syria (Mari, Ebla) is well known from the the middle of the 3nd millenia and for the Levant from the middle of the second millenia (Ougarit, Sidon, archives of Egypte, Assyria and Hittite). Migrations from West (Amorrites, Araméans, Louwites, Sea peoples, Thraces, Greeks,..), from North (Hurrites, Cimmerians,Scythes, Armenians, ...), from South (Chaldeans, Arabes, ..) had same importance than migratios from East and the Iranian plateau (Gutis, Elamites, Kassites, Medes, Persians) and altogether, probably the part of the very numerous original population remained important.

In the Neolithic, archeology sees a move from Fertile Crescent towards East and the Iranian haplogroups T and L could never developed in Iran. T developed westwards by migrating to Africa Horn and Nile Valley and a few in Levant and South Europe, K developed eastwards to Pakistan and West India, (and J2a accompanies K, the structure of J2a in the population of South India proves its old presence, renewed by successive migrations from Iran and Central Asia.

If South (Gulf Oasis) could be the refugium of some branches of J2a (and also for haplogroups J1 and T), Sumerian Mesopotamia and Levant were mainly populated by J2a from a long time (the sudist branch of J1 has arrved more recently), you are too radical, even I if am less certain for J2a presence in West Anatolia. you are victim of the MYTH of the demographic steamroller of Neolithic starting from Fertike Crescent and Levant to Europe. I dont' deny the geogenetic analysis of a cline from South-West Asia to North-West Europe but the factual analysis is wrong. The cline is the result of factual events from Paleolithic until modern times in the two directions, even if the moves from South-East were more important.

J2a was mainly a contributor to Mediterraneen migrations and I don't know historical events which explains to the so strong contributiond of J2a in European regions, specially along the Mediterranean coasts in South Greece, Cyprus, Creta, Sicily, South Italy, Abbruzes and Romagne, not neglictable in the remaining Italy (plus a few of hgs L, T in the same migrations) and 8-10 % average in Iberian peninsula, stronger in Portugal and West Spain plus a weaker diffusion in the remaining Europe.
The 3 oriental historical migrations cannot explain these proportions and not to concern regions with strong J2a presence:
1) Phenician and Greek colonies in the first millenia before JC.
2) Slaves, craftmen, Jews, soldiers and merchants during Roman Empire plus Christian refugees after.
3) Moslem expansion, but the weak presence of J2a in Egypt and North Africa doesn't show an important contribution of J2a. J1, E-M78 and E-M81 were the main contributors, even, if the presence of E-M81 could have existed in Iberia and Sicily since older times.

For Med. coast, only I know the results for the Catalonian Avelanner cave in Late Cardial (5000BC), it is not enough to take conclusions about the Med. way.

For continental way, we have a lot of samples older than the first Chalcolithic (3000BC ) but often in the cimeteries of long houses of Starcevo C and Linear C. in Danube Basin and Germany, This excludes mesolithic campments. and creates a bias in favour of G2a. My haplogroup G2a-L497 is exclusively European, probably he contributed to the Danubian expansion (more than Med. expansion,). L497 is mainly present in Western Europe West from a strong frequence in the high valleys of Tyrol , but it remains 1 to 3% in Lower Danube and Moldavia.
I have 6 nodes (5 in isogg and 1 in certification below L497) and dozen of SNPs which shows L497 was born nearn the Danube mouthes of mesolithic (fishers and sheep herders with G2a2b2a-P303 ascendants living in the warm Colchis (West Georgia) and Pontic (coast of North Turkey) glacial refugium in the South West Caucasus
• • • • • • • • G2a2b2a1b L497/S317, CTS1899/PF6851/Z738, CTS7111/Z748, PF6850/Z728, PF6852/Z754
• • • • • • • • • G2a2b2a1b1 CTS9737/Z1815
• • • • • • • • • • G2a2b2a1b1a Z725, CTS11352/Z759
• • • • • • • • • • • G2a2b2a1b1a2 CTS6796/Z726
• • • • • • • • • • • • G2a2b2a1b1a2a CTS4803
• • • • • • • • • • • • • G2a2b2a1b1a2a1 S2808
.....G-FCC14522

I think G2a danubian had been present since a long time in East Danube basin with the influence of Black Sea spilling and received influences from the old Karanovo culture of Bulgaria (7th millenia).

We don't know old DNA from South Balkans (Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania) and cannot conclude the absence of E-V13 and J2b in Late Mesolithic and Old Neolithic, I think E-V13 and J2b individus (fishers ?) arrived at the beginning of Mesolithic, we know the maritime obsidian exchange from Milos island since the end of Paleolithic.

In conclusion, J2a didn't participate to the mythical and non-existant tremendous democraphic wave of Early Neolithic, this explains the weakness of nowadays G2a frequency in Europe partially. In more when we know the rich (for Neolithic) and specific culture of Çatalhöyük and other sites of Anatolia and Levant in the 7th and beginning of 6th millenia BC, it is easy to be convinced the Linear settlers were not the descendants of the inhabitants of these sites. On the other hand the latter and richer European cultures of Sesklo/Dimini (Greece) and Vinca (Serbia) are more convincing.
User avatar
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:15 pm
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:45 am
palamede wrote:We mustn't forget the history of the Mesopotamia (Sumer, Akkad, Babylone, Assyria) and the Syria (Mari, Ebla) is well known from the the middle of the 3nd millenia and for the Levant from the middle of the second millenia (Ougarit, Sidon, archives of Egypte, Assyria and Hittite). Migrations from West (Amorrites, Araméans, Louwites, Sea peoples, Thraces, Greeks,..), from North (Hurrites, Cimmerians,Scythes, Armenians, ...), from South (Chaldeans, Arabes, ..) had same importance than migratios from East and the Iranian plateau (Gutis, Elamites, Kassites, Medes, Persians) and altogether, probably the part of the very numerous original population remained important.

Nothing to argue against here, but I think the important J2a migrations did happen much earlier then the "known history" and even known history and modern Y tells us not much without ancient DNA. Who can predict the correct (sub)haplogroup for untested remains?

palamede wrote:In the Neolithic, archeology sees a move from Fertile Crescent towards East and the Iranian haplogroups T and L could never developed in Iran. T developed westwards by migrating to Africa Horn and Nile Valley and a few in Levant and South Europe, K developed eastwards to Pakistan and West India, (and J2a accompanies K, the structure of J2a in the population of South India proves its old presence, renewed by successive migrations from Iran and Central Asia.

IMHO K and IJ have approx. the same age: 40 kybp (when homo sapiens went to Europe). LT is not much younger, but when we are talking about Neolithic, subclades of J2a, E1b-M78, R1b, R1a already diversified (phylogenetically and probably also geographically) for millennia. About the "structure of J2a in the population of South India" if the presence of many diverse lineages is intended I have the same problem here like with European J2a: diversity is only a good indicator of long presence, when no phylogentically "near" clades can be found in distant regions. As said in my blog I see many "recent" J2a clades with distribution in almost all western and central Eurasia. Maybe the old lineages where not Y-sequenced yet, but I doubt radical changements in the data by new findings.

palamede wrote:If South (Gulf Oasis) could be the refugium of some branches of J2a (and also for haplogroups J1 and T), Sumerian Mesopotamia and Levant were mainly populated by J2a from a long time (the sudist branch of J1 has arrved more recently), you are too radical, even I if am less certain for J2a presence in West Anatolia. you are victim of the MYTH of the demographic steamroller of Neolithic starting from Fertike Crescent and Levant to Europe. I dont' deny the geogenetic analysis of a cline from South-West Asia to North-West Europe but the factual analysis is wrong. The cline is the result of factual events from Paleolithic until modern times in the two directions, even if the moves from South-East were more important.

I do not believe the Neolithic brought a "demographic steamroller", but I do so for the Bronze Ages. Ötzi etc. show that there must have been a massive admixture change to Western Asia and other "Non-European" components. However J2a did not play a big part in this, but R1b and R1a do. My interpretation maybe radical, but I do not see clear arguments invalidating it. That is my point: check existing hypotheses by confrontation. I'm not that addicted to my analysis that I won't drop it (or change/update it), when I see evidence or at least convincing counterarguments. I never doubted the Fertile Crescent (or nearby) origin of J2a until the last months (with more and more Y-sequences available and a lot of J2a clustering done in J2 project) when the doubt was there and is now not small.

palamede wrote:J2a was mainly a contributor to Mediterraneen migrations and I don't know historical events which explains to the so strong contributiond of J2a in European regions, specially along the Mediterranean coasts in South Greece, Cyprus, Creta, Sicily, South Italy, Abbruzes and Romagne, not neglictable in the remaining Italy (plus a few of hgs L, T in the same migrations) and 8-10 % average in Iberian peninsula, stronger in Portugal and West Spain plus a weaker diffusion in the remaining Europe.
The 3 oriental historical migrations cannot explain these proportions and not to concern regions with strong J2a presence:
1) Phenician and Greek colonies in the first millenia before JC.
2) Slaves, craftmen, Jews, soldiers and merchants during Roman Empire plus Christian refugees after.
3) Moslem expansion, but the weak presence of J2a in Egypt and North Africa doesn't show an important contribution of J2a. J1, E-M78 and E-M81 were the main contributors, even, if the presence of E-M81 could have existed in Iberia and Sicily since older times.

If the "clear European" J2a subclades are not older then the mentioned historical timeframe, why not? I have not done a comprehensive analysis by using SNP counting etc. because I would like to wait until all major J2 subclades have a FGC Y-Elite sequence evailable, but the low STR-diversity tells already much. If you have a candidate lineage very old in Europe - beside possibly J2a-Z6056 (xM68) - please post.

palamede wrote:We don't know old DNA from South Balkans (Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania) and cannot conclude the absence of E-V13 and J2b in Late Mesolithic and Old Neolithic, I think E-V13 and J2b individus (fishers ?) arrived at the beginning of Mesolithic, we know the maritime obsidian exchange from Milos island since the end of Paleolithic.

I do not doubt the old age of E1b-V13, but J2b-L283 seems not so old (but older then the Greek Dark Ages, so the Asian brother clade could not have been an Alexandrine expansion), but again without the wished aDNA evidence this does not change the controversy about J2a plus all the others that exist.
DNA/Admixture Central Europe (Alps, Tyrol, Dolomites, Raetia); Y-DNA J2a-L1064, J2a-L210, R1a-M17, R1b-U106 (L48-); mtDNA J1b1b, J1c1d, U5a2b2, U5b1b1. Projects : J2-M172, J2a-PF5197, Alpine DNA, ISOGG Wiki

Posts: 2329
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:36 am
J-Y2919*
id:NA20543 TSI
J2a1b3*
id:NA20521 TSI
J-Z478 Z478 * Z479 * Z480 * Z481 * Z482... 30 SNPs
id:NA20801 TSI
id:NA20787 TSI
J-Z508*
id:NA20765TSI
J-Z515 Z515 * Z516 * Z517
J-Z515*
id:NA20815 TSI
J-Z6254 CTS710 * CTS3330 * CTS5570 * CTS10662 * Z6254... 4 SNPs
id:NA20827 TSI
id:NA20513 TSI
J-Y3021*
id:NA20534 TSI
J-Z435 PF5440/Z435
id:NA20805 TSI
J-PF5456*
id:NA20809 TSI
id:NA20778 TSI
J-Z600*
id:NA20763 TSI
J-Z1043*
id:NA20525 TSI
J-Z8430 M7833 * CTS11760 * Z8428 * Z8429 * Z8430
id:NA20811 TSI
J-Z2453 CTS6187 * CTS9636 * CTS5072 * CTS9483 * CTS10991... 14 SNPs
id:NA20588 TSI

These are the 16 Tuscans of the 1KGP who belong to many old and fundamental subclades of hg J: 16 out of 51 = 31,37%.
I wrote a long post on Worldfamilies when the 1KGP data came out... or do you too believe to the tale that Etruscans came from Asia Minor?
In the late Sixties I found and bought a book on a bookstall in Florence: Los Etruscos salieron de los Andes. After I discovered that the book had been sold to the stall holder from the great linguist Emilio Peruzzi, for so long teacher at the Scuola Normale Superiore of Pisa, who had received it as a gift: he gave me 30 (the maximum, the cum laude only for his pupils) to an exam about the Le origini delle lingue neolatine by Carlo Tagliavini, where there was all the linguistics at that time, but he asked me all about Etruscans beyond all the rest.
User avatar
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:19 am
Location: Family Line Veneto ( italy ) since ~1600
YDNA:
T1a2-Z19945
MtDNA:
H95a
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:46 am
palamede wrote:
In the Neolithic, archeology sees a move from Fertile Crescent towards East and the Iranian haplogroups T and L could never developed in Iran. T developed westwards by migrating to Africa Horn and Nile Valley and a few in Levant and South Europe, K developed eastwards to Pakistan and West India, (and J2a accompanies K, the structure of J2a in the population of South India proves its old presence, renewed by successive migrations from Iran and Central Asia.

.


Since I and J developed early than T and L ...and According to genetic atlas LT=L298/P326 has origins in the sind valley, then I and J origins must be west of this Sind valley.

Since T origins are older in azeri, armenian and assyrian than in the levant , then which area is older?

Since T origins in the levant are older than T in egypt ..........then which area is older ?

Since T in Egypt is older than somalia and the arabian peninsula , then which area is older?

The ages of T are already noted in genetic papers
Haplogroup T-M184 is not associated with the R1, G and J lineages that entered Africa from Eurasia relatively recently. Luis et al. (2004) suggest that the presence of the clade on the African continent may, like R1* representatives, point to an older introduction from Asia. The Levant rather than the Arabian Peninsula appears to have been the main route of entry, as the Egyptian and Turkish haplotypes are considerably older in age (13,700 ybp and 9,000 ybp, respectively) than those found in Oman (only 1,600 ybp).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182266/

I wish people did not only asscociate the mass numbers of a haplogroup to indicate its origin......
Fathers mtdna - T2b17 ...back to 1860 Bucciol line
Grandfathers mtdna - T1a1e ...back to 1820 Mestriner line
Sons Mtdna - K1a4 ....back to 1840 Tesser line
Maternal grandfather ydna - Ild-P109
User avatar
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:15 pm
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:18 pm
Gioiello wrote:These are the 16 Tuscans of the 1KGP who belong to many old and fundamental subclades of hg J: 16 out of 51 = 31,37%.
I wrote a long post on Worldfamilies when the 1KGP data came out... or do you too believe to the tale that Etruscans came from Asia Minor?

Under "Old and fundamental" I understand a Pre-Neolithic age. I can't see this for 1kG J2a subclades: most of the still not informative current terminal clades from my comparisons have an age under 6,000 years, some maybe not more then 4,000 years (see age thread). And more importantly the only available world and regional Y-NGS datasets (1kG, PF, GoNL) are not representative for J2a: no samples from the Middle East are included. If we look at the data known 12 months ago we can clearly see that for J2a West and East dominate the phylogeny construction. And for every old J2a clade with Western (Tuscan, Iberia, etc.) we can find also Eastern samples (Punjabi, Tamil, etc.). The oldest J2a paragroup so far is J2a-PF5008(xPF5007) defined by HG01589 PJL-Punjabi. But as said before I do not trust a clade diversity and distribution analysis until we do not have comprehensive NGS-Y results from all J2a territory.
Only with the incoming BigY and FGC results we gain a better picture. But much variant analysis needs to be done, for example for J2a-M67-CTS3261 subclades, etc., etc.

Regarding Etruscans I haven't seen any informative aDNA-NGS data (admixture, Y). So everything is speculation. The same is valid for Phoenicians, Rhaetians, etc. Unfortunately it seems that after PF-Sardinians and Ötzi not much funds are available for next generation DNA science :-(
DNA/Admixture Central Europe (Alps, Tyrol, Dolomites, Raetia); Y-DNA J2a-L1064, J2a-L210, R1a-M17, R1b-U106 (L48-); mtDNA J1b1b, J1c1d, U5a2b2, U5b1b1. Projects : J2-M172, J2a-PF5197, Alpine DNA, ISOGG Wiki

Posts: 2329
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:05 pm
ChrisR wrote:
Gioiello wrote:These are the 16 Tuscans of the 1KGP who belong to many old and fundamental subclades of hg J: 16 out of 51 = 31,37%.
I wrote a long post on Worldfamilies when the 1KGP data came out... or do you too believe to the tale that Etruscans came from Asia Minor?

Under "Old and fundamental" I understand a Pre-Neolithic age. I can't see this for 1kG J2a subclades: most of the still not informative current terminal clades from my comparisons have an age under 6,000 years, some maybe not more then 4,000 years (see age thread). And more importantly the only available world and regional Y-NGS datasets (1kG, PF, GoNL) are not representative for J2a: no samples from the Middle East are included. If we look at the data known 12 months ago we can clearly see that for J2a West and East dominate the phylogeny construction. And for every old J2a clade with Western (Tuscan, Iberia, etc.) we can find also Eastern samples (Punjabi, Tamil, etc.). The oldest J2a paragroup so far is J2a-PF5008(xPF5007) defined by HG01589 PJL-Punjabi. But as said before I do not trust a clade diversity and distribution analysis until we do not have comprehensive NGS-Y results from all J2a territory.
Only with the incoming BigY and FGC results we gain a better picture. But much variant analysis needs to be done, for example for J2a-M67-CTS3261 subclades, etc., etc.

Regarding Etruscans I haven't seen any informative aDNA-NGS data (admixture, Y). So everything is speculation. The same is valid for Phoenicians, Rhaetians, etc. Unfortunately it seems that after PF-Sardinians and Ötzi not much funds are available for next generation DNA science :-(


Of course I agree with you in all what you say, above all about the fact that we need more Big Y, Y Prime, Full Genome results which probably will be definitive. I am not an expert of hg. J, having been interested above all of my R1b1 and subclades and also of the oldest subclades of R1a, but:
a) I was surprised from the very high percentage of hg. J amongst the Tuscans of the 1KGP, even though the tested people came from only one little town around Florence and couldn't be representative of all Tuscany, which has of course different populations and different history within the region: in my part of Tuscany (Northern-Western one) I found 100% hg. R1b amongst the few people I tested.
b) My fight, from when I began to study this matter, was against who thought that any hg. J, E, T, etc. were recent immigrants to Italy, and I thought that they were here from thousands of years. You, but Oetzi before you, are giving me reason.
c) My theory of the "Italian Refugium" says that hg. R1b1-L389+ (but also R1a-M420 and R1a-M459) came out from the Italian or Alpine Refugium. But I think that they weren't the only Y present there.
d) Also about hg. J I think it is in line with my ideas that Tuscany (but only a little town has been tested from 1KGP within a region and this within a state) has also 1 sample of
J-Z2453 CTS6187 * CTS9636 * CTS5072 * CTS9483 * CTS10991... 14 SNPs
id:NA20588 TSI
i.e. at the same level of J-M241
J-Z1825 Z2529 * M8490 * Z8250 * Z1825 * CTS2622/Z1827... 3 SNPs
J-Z1825*
J-M241 Z601 * Z605 * Z618 * Z620 * Z623... 39 SNPs
and this should be a very old presence.

Return to J2a (M410) Haplogroup

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron