The case Rocca

Any discussions about this haplogroup

Moderator: napobo3


Posts: 2329
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:46 am
I am examining the case of Rocca, an Italian who thinks to be of Jewish (Sephardic) descent:
W5A5S Rocca Italy
12 22 14 10 13 15 11 15 11 14 11 30
He has been classified J2a1b1 from 23andMe, but its haplotype seems closer to the Jewish Sephardic J-L556. This writes Penninx:
This group has been studied several times. A nice collection can be found in Wirth ftdna site. The line is a Middle East-Sephardic line. Apart from the large Ashkenazi group L556, we have also a Jewish Ashkenazi descendant from a separate line in this group. He shares the CTS2906 marker, but lacks the L560 marker (which is equal to L556). Genetic Distance=24. The other CTS2906 person that has L556- is from Mexico, so likely a converso.
A study by the Bacharach family (from Frankfurt DNA project) is found on http://bacharachdna.com/. In the beginning of the 16th century four German cities had many Jews: Prague was the largest, followed by Vienna, Frankfurt and Worms.
On the Jews of Frankfurt website a very nice Y-DNA STR familytree is shown which follows the historic information of the movements of the family members.
This branch has several STR characteristics that are grouped. We can compare the subranches of Treves-Weill with Bacharach-Wertheimer, because of the Wirth project diagram. The Bacharach branch has DYS464=13-13-16-16-16-16 (Treves: 13-13-15-16-16-16), DYS557=14 (Treves: 15), DYS446=often 14 (Treves: 13), DYS505=13 (Treves: 14), DYS549=12 (Treves: 13), DYS463=22 (Treves: 21). This suggests that males were 6 mutations took place between Bacharach-Wertheimer and Treves-Weill. If we determine the tmrca of the two ancestors, they are 1240 and 1150. This means that we have two scenarios, which can be checked with next generation SNP analysis: the two are parallel relatives, or MRCA of the first groups is a descendant of the MRCA of the second group; in this case the first ancestor had a somewhat larger population growth than the second. Because of the similar tmrca of both groups, it seems more likely that they were parallel. The shared ancestor would be a little earlier, like 1000 ybp. The SNP's of next generation sequencing can make this more accurate.
J2a-L556
12 22 14 10 14-15 11 15 12 14 11 31 15 9-9 11 11 26 15 20 29 13-13-15-16-16-16 10 10 19-22 15 12 15 17 34-36 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 15 10 12 12 15 8 11 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 12 12 11
list of SNPs: J - 12f2a, 12f2.1, M304, P209, L60, L134 - M172, L228 - M410, L152, L212, L505, L532, L559, CTS10036, CTS1030, CTS113, CTS12014, CTS12015, CTS4360, CTS4540, CTS5066, CTS5482, CTS5867, CTS8264, F1183, F1559, F2078, F2418, F2672, F4095, F4100, F4106, F4259, F4266, F4334, F841, PF4499, PF4500, PF4527, PF4891, PF4942, PF4952, PF4953, PF4955, PF4959, PF4982, PF4985, PF4992 - CTS7683, F1227, F4074, PF4610, PF5084, PF5091, PF5104, PF5105 - L26, L27, L927, CTS10711, CTS11983, CTS2192, CTS9718, PF4901, PF4984, PF5106, PF5116, PF5119, PF5123, PF5125, PF5127, PF5138, Z1849 - Z2221, Z2220, Z2222 - Z2227, PF5116, PF5119, PF5123, PF5125, PF5127, PF5138 - M67, L558 - M92, M260 - CTS2906 - L556, L560
The following kitnr's are recognized as Ashkenazim:
N29103 71691 70610 119546 8416 101015 211627 86120 99705 29072 N36595 15854 78928 58014 167079 50626 228035 46571 101722 108965 N22878 101459 150891 424 30979 222781 260202 105493 208921 916 194828 163 116289 181727 49024 47749 247255 298374 N41195 157655 N26932 175667 150344 343 43230 103387 5984 101977 134363 N56522 N54227 157062 N78385 411 8415 19438 N80760 199842 65940 297320 313259 232883 3205 188569 36358 61810 49388 132750 161421 176782 N24922 211622 1 302142 116068 147963 8811 67387 6034 150661 73760 61746 242488 22025 69509 122839 209229 254537 70867 172784 163184 73647 259528 3206 70612 262029 223292 113336 N31200 148429 28924 156873 145711 200675 189752 28730 162907 167053 153990 163122 N2500 188861 97190 240551 N29430 162966 174705 222819 230191 N27113 N69241 23075 50911 175250 E12266 19386 137126 197945 141290 170586 68220 145757 118449 186146 168104 137121 112842 196489 20908 204432 163407 296689 174146 284980 46925 73944 118655 55452 N41658 72245 282535 104201 112303 216297 171079 114078 178971 275611 312867 163611 195735 168314 187786 158753 N79686 149535 238369 N31492 226303 221907 197833
Check for yourself by inspecting the data that was used.
But the ancestral to this Sephardic subclade, who has a very recent common ancestor also for Penninx, are a Cuban and an Italian persons:
222662 Espino Unknown Origin J-CTS2906
12 22 14 10 13-16 11 15 11 13 11 30 16 9-9 11 11 26 15 20 30 12-13-16-16 10 10 19-22 15 12 18 16 36-36 11 9 11 7 15-15 7 11 10 8 12 9 0 17-17 14 10 12 12 15 8 11 23 21 14 12 11 13 11 12 12 11
N113968 Antonio Francischelli J2a1a2b1a2
CTS10036+, CTS1030+, CTS10362+, CTS1068+, CTS10711+, CTS10858+, CTS109+, CTS113+, CTS11358+, CTS11571+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11765+, CTS11787+, CTS11983+, CTS12014+, CTS12015+, CTS12047+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2192+, CTS2769+, CTS2906+, CTS333+, CTS3331+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3936+, CTS3996+, CTS4132+, CTS4230+, CTS4360+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4443+, CTS4540+, CTS4740+, CTS4861+, CTS5066+, CTS5280+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5482+, CTS5532+, CTS5628+, CTS5867+, CTS6135+, CTS6372+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS6932+, CTS7193+, CTS7404+, CTS7683+, CTS7738+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8243+, CTS8264+, CTS852+, CTS886+, CTS8938+, CTS8980+, CTS9240+, CTS9718+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F1167+, F1181+, F1183+, F1209+, F1227+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1450+, F1460+, F1559+, F1634+, F1704+, F1714+, F1744+, F1753+, F1767+, F2048+, F2075+, F2078+, F2116+, F2142+, F2155+, F2174+, F2276+, F2302+, F2345+, F2366+, F2390+, F2402+, F2418+, F2502+, F2587+, F2672+, F2688+, F2710+, F2746+, F2749+, F2769+, F2794+, F2817+, F2837+, F2839+, F2973+, F2985+, F2993+, F3074+, F3111+, F3119+, F3136+, F3335+, F3343+, F3347+, F3358+, F3368+, F3384+, F3402+, F3556+, F3692+, F4072+, F4074+, F4095+, F4100+, F4106+, F4188+, F4259+, F4266+, F4272+, F4283+, F4334+, F719+, F841+, F922+, L132+, L134+, L15+, L16+, L212+, L228+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF3515+, PF3517+, PF3518+, PF3534+, PF3560+, PF3561+, PF3562+, PF4490+, PF4491+, PF4500+, PF4513+, PF4521+, PF4527+, PF4530+, PF4572+, PF4591+, PF4595+, PF4597+, PF4598+, PF4610+, PF4622+, PF4886+, PF4891+, PF4901+, PF4925+, PF4935+, PF4942+, PF4952+, PF4955+, PF4959+, PF4982+, PF4984+, PF4985+, PF4992+, PF500+, PF5084+, PF5091+, PF5104+, PF5105+, PF5106+, PF5116+, PF5119+, PF5120+, PF5123+, PF5125+, PF5127+, PF5132+, PF5135+, PF5138+, PF5143+, PF5147+, PF5149+, PF5155+, PF5156+, PF5158+, PF667+, PF719+, PF725+, PF7404+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000056+, YSC0000064+, YSC0000066+, YSC0000165+, YSC0000197+, YSC0000228+, YSC0000236+, YSC0000239+, YSC0000265+, Z1845+, Z1847+, Z1849+, Z496+, Z497+, Z499+, Z500+, Z503+, Z504+, Z510+, Z511+, Z514+, L748+, L778+, M139+, M168+, M172+, M235+, M260+, M294+, M304+, M42+, M67+, M89+, M92+, M94+, P123+, P124+, P126+, P127+, P130+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P209+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, L26+, L27+, L350+, L403+, L468+, L470+, L498+, L505+, L559+, L560-, PF2462-, L236-
and to think that they descend from Jews and not the other way around is the usual (not demonstrated so far) pretension of Jews.

Posts: 2329
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:26 am
From these data it seems that we Tuscans are all descendants of Abraham:

J-M92 Z7649 * Z7646 * Z7637... 25 SNPs

J-M92*
J-Z515 Z6253 * Z517 * Z516... 1 SNPs
J-Z515*
id:NA20815 TSI
J-Z6254 Z6258 * Z6256 * Z6255... 6 SNPs
id:NA20513 TSI
id:NA20827 TSI
J-Z8096 Z8096 * Y9002 * Y7536... 9 SNPs
J-Z8096*
id:NA20765 TSI
J2a1b1a Y9017 * Y9016 * Y9015... 14 SNPs
id:YF02222 UKR
id:YF02528 UKR new

Return to J2a (M410) Haplogroup

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron