Big Y, what next?

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:31 am
Gioiello
There are some 67 YSTR marker close matches tested who are not related within the past 2,000 years. A lot of Americans testers are testing cousins and it is no surprise that they match closely at 67 YSTR markers. When two testers with different surnames show with a similar 37 or 67 marker haplotype they need further testing to determine the relationship. This is not the way to go. It was the way to go 12 years ago because there were no YSNP tests available at that time. I have lots of YSTR matches who took a basic 37 marker test and then sit around for years waiting for something to happen. All of my 12 and 25 YSTR matches are Stone Age matches because they are M269 predicted.



FTDNA does not do enough to educate testers about the difference between YSTRs and YSNPs. FTDNA should offer a basic YSNP test along with a 37 YSTR marker or 67 YSTR marker test.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:09 am
Gioiello
One of my Big Y matches does not match me at 12,25 or 37 YSTR markers but matches me at 67 markers. My other Big Y match does not match me at 12,25,37 or even 67 YSTr markers. He is a GD of 13 at 67 markers so he is a long way outside of FTDNA's matching threshold of 7 at 67 markers.

Some testers who match at 57 out of 67 markers with off-modal matching markers could be in the same terminal branch that may be around 2,000 years old. I used to think that an exact match at 12 or 25 markers was meaningful but it does not work for a lot of testers who are M269. I have one exact 12 match who is in my terminal branch which is estimated to be 4,000 ybp and two testers who do not match at all in 12 markers who show a closer relationship through YSNP tests.


So YSTR tests are not very reliable and newbies would do well to take YSNPs tests and save themselves a lot of money in the long run.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:27 pm
H1614 Antonio del Badia (1449-?) Castelfiorentino (Firen Italy R-Z2105 12 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 12 29 16 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 14-14-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 19 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 32 15 9 16 11 25 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 12 14 24 14 10 9 20 15 19 14 23 18 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 18 9 11 11
H1621 Antonio del Badia (1449-?) Castelfiorentino (Firen Italy R-M269 12 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14-14-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 12 12 13 13 11 30 12 14 24 14 10 23 11
Thes are the values of me and my far relative Giancarlo Tognoni, tested in the SMGF format. 4 mismatches out of 43 markers are reliable and demonstrate that our MRCA was born on 1449. Mismatches may be also in very slow mutating markers, as DYS392, and it demonstrates that my 12 value is a recent mutation. But we have the same surname, Tognoni, and for comparing recent relatedness it is an important clue.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:56 pm
Gioiello wrote:H1614 Antonio del Badia (1449-?) Castelfiorentino (Firen Italy R-Z2105 12 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 12 29 16 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 14-14-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 19 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 32 15 9 16 11 25 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 12 14 24 14 10 9 20 15 19 14 23 18 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 18 9 11 11
H1621 Antonio del Badia (1449-?) Castelfiorentino (Firen Italy R-M269 12 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14-14-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 12 12 13 13 11 30 12 14 24 14 10 23 11
Thes are the values of me and my far relative Giancarlo Tognoni, tested in the SMGF format. 4 mismatches out of 43 markers are reliable and demonstrate that our MRCA was born on 1449. Mismatches may be also in very slow mutating markers, as DYS392, and it demonstrates that my 12 value is a recent mutation. But we have the same surname, Tognoni, and for comparing recent relatedness it is an important clue.


YSTRs are okay for cousin matches that you know about but not for proving the relationship of unknown testers with similar haplotypes.

The country of origin is enough info for any tester to put up on the internet. It is not fair to their cousins who may not want to take dna tests. Giving the exact location of an ancestor 200 years ago is pointing to the location of a specific haplotype in that small region within a 20 miles radius.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:18 am
Gioiello
While using the Big Y chromosome browser to look at the quality of my Big Y SNPs I discovered an indel beside one of my new YSNPs. Yfull says that it is a complex indel not YSNP and a unique marker. I cannot make the YSNP public as it is a unique identifier to my YDNA line. This mutation occured between 1,300 and 2,000 ybp. There are only three testers with this mutation and they are Irish.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:00 pm
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
While using the Big Y chromosome browser to look at the quality of my Big Y SNPs I discovered an indel beside one of my new YSNPs. Yfull says that it is a complex indel not YSNP and a unique marker. I cannot make the YSNP public as it is a unique identifier to my YDNA line. This mutation occured between 1,300 and 2,000 ybp. There are only three testers with this mutation and they are Irish.


I posted on the YFull page at FB that a new SNP recognized from them to a person I know actually was a deletion of 4 bps. They didn't reply, and they say that they don't consider indels.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:55 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
While using the Big Y chromosome browser to look at the quality of my Big Y SNPs I discovered an indel beside one of my new YSNPs. Yfull says that it is a complex indel not YSNP and a unique marker. I cannot make the YSNP public as it is a unique identifier to my YDNA line. This mutation occured between 1,300 and 2,000 ybp. There are only three testers with this mutation and they are Irish.


I posted on the YFull page at FB that a new SNP recognized from them to a person I know actually was a deletion of 4 bps. They didn't reply, and they say that they don't consider indels.


They do not consider most indels but my indel is unique.

Here is what Dr. Iain McDonald writes about indels.

"Probability of recorded indel in BigY ~= 1640 years per mutation
-> ~55 generations per mutation
Probability of no mutation = 54/55 in one generation
= 53/55 in two generations, etc."
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