Who's your (proto) daddy Western Europeans?

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

Posts: 2308
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:02 am
I don't reply to many things you said above, because I should say too much.
About the R-Z2103 in Iran (my haplogroup) I followed the discussion on "Eurogenes blog" about that. What does it mean 1 sample out of hundreds, not C14 dated, not deposited in public access?
1) We had F38 already there. Recent and come from Samara.
2) There has been a migration from Italy after the Younger Dryas to Middle East and also Iran, as the mt H32 found there, clearly from the Italian Refgium.
3) It seems to me that these Jews use the DNA as the gas (they know well this matter), see the Skripal case and what happens in Syria. Don't forget that an only one Satan II may annihilate all the Isles.

Posts: 2095
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:44 am
Gioiello wrote:I don't reply to many things you said above, because I should say too much.
About the R-Z2103 in Iran (my haplogroup) I followed the discussion on "Eurogenes blog" about that. What does it mean 1 sample out of hundreds, not C14 dated, not deposited in public access?
1) We had F38 already there. Recent and come from Samara.
2) There has been a migration from Italy after the Younger Dryas to Middle East and also Iran, as the mt H32 found there, clearly from the Italian Refgium.


This thread is about the ancestors of western European R1b P312 and U106 because they are the majority YDNA groups today in western Europe. We know from the evidence that they were in the minority 5,000 ybp in western Europe and I don't know if one can say that Yfull's dates are wrong. P312 and U106 has not been found in a Neolithic context in any part of Europe yet.

The one Z2103 in Iran could have the wrong date and could be from the Balkans or Italy for that matter, but I think that the ancient Z2103 in the Yamnaya were migrants from the Caucasus or the Balkans.

Some posters like to twist the data to suit their ideology. They write that the 40-50 % CHG in the Yamnaya was through female migration and 15-30% Steppe in western Europeans was through male migration.

The same people ignore the fact that the Iberian origin Bell Beaker people were 50% female. Were the female BB buried with their weapons, bows and arrows, copper knives and wrist guards also?

And they ignore the facts also that there was a huge population expansion and migration during the Neolithic from the fertile crescent in all directions, and they had their own language or languages.

They ignore the fact also that haplogroup G (Caucasus origin) has been found in lots of Neolithic grave sites.

Thankfully they are a minority group who have tried to twist the facts to fit in with their personal ydna ancestral history and they seem like very insecure people. They are not their ancestors and where they were born today and the culture they were born in will not change nomatter where their ancestor originated.
Last edited by dartraighe on Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 2095
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:48 am
https://en.natmus.dk/historical-knowled ... le-graves/

"Single burials were especially common in western Denmark and they have given their name to the period of “the Single Grave Culture”. Burials were situated in fairly small barrows.

The earliest burials (c. 2800-2600 BC) consisted of deep graves under a low mound. Later, in the period from 2600 to 2350 BC, new graves were often dug into an existing barrow. At the same time the barrow was enlarged. A fence of posts was erected around some barrows and children were buried in small cists at the outer edge of the mound."

Posts: 2095
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:47 am
Gedmatch kit - sample name
Z905950 I1765_d Beaker_Britain
Z792075 I1767 Beaker_Britain
Z886401 I1770 Beaker_Britain
Z600869 I2417 Beaker_Britain
Z153380 I2418 Beaker_Britain
Z760891 I2443 Beaker_Britain
Z078388 I2445 Beaker_Britain
Z800113 I2446 Beaker_Britain
Z131879 I2447 Beaker_Britain
Z450619 I2450 Beaker_Britain
Z654972 I2452 Beaker_Britain
Z707403 I2453 Beaker_Britain
Z819290 I2454 Beaker_Britain
Z203798 I2455 Beaker_Britain
Z347682 I2459 Beaker_Britain
Z557300 I2565 Beaker_Britain
Z186583 I2566 Beaker_Britain
Z846057 I2566 Beaker_Britain
Z766963 I2568 Beaker_Britain
Z265493 I2598 Beaker_Britain
Z018758 I3255 Beaker_Britain
Z232917 I3256 Beaker_Britain
Z032359 I5367 Beaker_Britain
Z762603 I5376 Beaker_Britain
Z843361 I5379 Beaker_Britain
Z567475 I5382 Beaker_Britain
Z281565 I5385 Beaker_Britain
Z560295 I5471 Beaker_Britain
Z890194 I5512 Beaker_Britain
Z586131 I5513 Beaker_Britain
Z369442 I6679 Beaker_Britain
Z690341 I6774 Beaker_Britain
Z438359 I6775 Beaker_Britain
Z733360 I6777 Beaker_Britain

Posts: 2095
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:17 pm
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-43712587

Iron Age study targets British DNA mystery
"A project to sequence DNA from about 1,000 ancient remains could resolve a genetic mystery involving people from south-east Britain."

"For comparison, the total global data-set of DNA sequences from ancient human remains currently stands at about 1,400 individuals."

"Prof Reich said his team at Harvard currently had three working hypotheses to explain the result. While the Beakers replaced around 90% of the ancestry in Britain, it's possible that a pocket (or pockets) of Neolithic farmers held out in isolation somewhere for hundreds of years."

"During the Iron Age (which began around 3,000 years ago), they mixed back in with the general population, diluting the Beakers' genetic background with a type of ancestry that's now stronger around the Mediterranean than in Northern or Central Europe."

"Alternatively, the genetic data may be hinting at a separate migration from continental Europe during the Iron Age - perhaps one that brought Celtic languages into Britain"

I think that Prof. Reich is telling us that the Bell Beakers and the Celts were two different entities.

Posts: 2095
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:31 am
If the dates for L21 in ancient dna samples from Ireland are older than in Britain then we will know that L21 originated in Ireland. That will show that we can learn about subhaplogroups from modern distributions. We know that a map of P312 from the BA is similar to a modern P312 map and that western Europe is the hotspot for this group. There is no hotspot in the Steppe for P312 and we can rule out the Steppe as the origin place of P312. I hope that some P312 people will be able to come to terms with this reality.


As far as U106 goes, we are still waiting on ancient dna samples from western/central Europe that shows that U106 was a subhaplogroup spread throughout the region in the BA. If U106 was heavily involved in the Urnfield Culture then we will not be able to get any results. If one looks at the map of the area covered by the Urnfield Culture it is the area where U106 is found most today.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture

Also
Mr Eurogenes states;
"But even if you want to ignore this for whatever odd reasons you might have, then there are strong links between Western Europeans and the Bronze Age steppe peoples in terms of mtDNA haplotypes that have nothing to do with Anatolian farmers, because they're Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) derived haplotypes"

That suggests to me that the BB's got their Steppe dna from females, but more important, it shows that it was not a male dominated migration which has been stated over the past number of years.

Posts: 2308
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:52 am
dartraighe wrote:Also
Mr Eurogenes states;
"But even if you want to ignore this for whatever odd reasons you might have, then there are strong links between Western Europeans and the Bronze Age steppe peoples in terms of mtDNA haplotypes that have nothing to do with Anatolian farmers, because they're Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) derived haplotypes"

That suggests to me that the BB's got their Steppe dna from females, but more important, it shows that it was not a male dominated migration which has been stated over the past number of years.


Mr Eurogenes and all the other morons are out of head:

“Here you go...

Beaker Central Europe I7044 R1b1a1a2a2c1
Beaker Central Europe I2787 R1b1a1a2a2

There are now Bell Beaker samples from the same burial sites that belong to both R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L51. Obviously, they arrived from the steppe at the same time”.

Mr Demijew as a demivierge is out of head:

He said that Caucasus has R-L23 and R-V1636 which separated 18000 years ago as if they were from Caucasus, not knowing (or pretending to not know) that Caucasian R-V1636 is one only subclade with YCAII=23-23 and derived through a RecLOH from an Iberian/Italian cluster (Italian cluster, at least in Tuscan Mangino/Mancini, is linked to the unique Jewish cluster) with YCAII=18-23. Of course he is paid from Carbonam.

Ted the Mad is out of head, always. Unfortunately it seems that this R-CTS6 from Iranian/Khazarian ancestry, which could shed some light on the R1a-Levites cluster, is at a very low coverage.

Posts: 2095
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 7:53 pm
It does not really matter to me and to a lot of other R1b western Europeans whether the PIE came from the Steppe or Anatolia. The origins of P312 and U106 is the most important point and some realise that they did not originate in any part of the Steppe or Anatolia. There are some R1b diehards who cannot accept the fact that L51 down to P312/U106 belonged to one small family and could not be responsible for a massive invasion from any part of the Steppe.

Posts: 2095
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:01 pm
Iberian Bell Beaker I5665/RISE911 from El Virgazal, Tablada de Rudron, Burgos, Spain, was unresolved R1b-P312, had a lot of steppe autosomal dna probably from a Steppe female, and was dated to 2281-1985 BC.

Iberian Bell Beaker I6472 from La Magdalena, Alcala de Henares, Madrid, Spain, was unresolved R1b-M269, had also steppe autosomal dna probably from a female , and was dated to 2500-2000 BC.


P312 was formed around 5,000 YBP according to Dr. Iain McDonald.

M269 was formed 13,000 ybp according to Yfull.

The Steppe autosomal dna was either brought by females or is from an earlier period such as the Mesolithic.

If P312 is older than 5,000 years, let us see the evidence, and we are still waiting for the first ancient dna sample of P312 and U106 from the Steppe.

Someone wrote that P312 was found in the Khvalynsk culture. That would be a game changer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khvalynsk_culture

Posts: 2095
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:09 am
In the Olalde et al pre-print BB paper 51 of the 101 BB samples were females which shows that the Bell Beaker people were not a male dominated society.

The hunter-gatherer people were tall, healthy and strong. The Neolithic people were shorter. Some say that the BB people were taller than the Neolithic people. We can suggest that the BB people were from the HG people who survived alongside the Neolithic peoples.

One poster who has examined the MTDNA in BB graves has stated that some were Steppe derived. There is no need to create myths about the BB people to suit an agenda.

If the ancestor of the Iberian Bell Beaker R1b people came from the Ukraine the Bell Beaker people would have Ukrainian autosomal dna.

If the ancestor of the Iberian Bell Beaker R1b people came from Samara then we would see the L51>P312 and L51>U106 hotspots in and around Samara in the modern ydna.

The earliest YDNA in Iberian BB samples were I2a and I2a is a Mesolithic dna marker. It was not farmers that they found in Iberian BB's and one poster is clutching at straws. The tallest people in the world are the Dutch.

It looks like Mr Eurogenes will need a new calculator, one that fits with the evidence, not one that fits with his mindset.
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