Who's your (proto) daddy Western Europeans?

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:43 pm
Gioiello wrote:


Armenians are more tested than Italians and they are in the world less than 10% than Italians, and their R-L23 are pretty all L584 and L277. Im my haplogroup Z2110 there is one Armenian and at least 6 Italians tested. Do you think that Z2110 is more likely from Armenia or from Italy?
Their L11 and P312 are all demonstrated introgressed from Western Europe.
Their R-L389 belongs to an unique haplotype with YCAII=23-23 whereas Italy has all the known so far 5 haplotypes....
And don't forget that the Indo-European component of Armenians came very likely from the Balkans (a few years ago 29% of their autosome).



R1b needs to be found in Italy between 8,000 and 4,500 ybp to verify the continuation from Villabruna. And there needs to be a lot of samples tested because the ancient dna results so far has brought more questions than answers. How and when did the Z2103 arrive in Armenia? If it was from the Balkans 6,000 years ago then it could have been from Armenia into the Steppe with CHG. The Armenian project shows that L51 did not come from there. It is good that the TMRCA's are beside the subgroups in the Armenian project.

If the scientists have proof that P312 expanded in the Steppe before invading western Europe why did they not make it public? Why do they write about Steppe autosomal dna and the PIE? A lot of R1b testers are interested and waiting for the ancient dna results from the Steppe. There is no need for endless speculation about the origin of western European R1b. For years the scientists wrote that there was absolutely no R1b in western Europe until the Bronze Age and then they found Villabruna. A few other R1 and R1b pre-BA samples were found in western Europe but they were poor undetermined or degraded dna results!!!

And there is a lot of the G and J samples in Armenia and both these haplogroups were found in Neolithic Europe so how is that CHG did not reach Europe until the Bronze Age?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:48 am
The birth of the CWC 2,900-2,350 BC brought a wave of migrants from the Steppe into the present day Germany according to the experts. R1b is missing from CWC sites in Germany and those that propose a Steppe origin for R1b should take note. If the Steppe was saturated with R1b in the time of the CWC then the CWC sites should be 50/50 R1a/R1b and the Bell Beaker should be 50/50 R1a/R1b. No R1b has turned up in CWC and R1a has not turned up in the Bell Beaker sites. A Steppe origin for R1b P312 ,which was the majority subhaplogroup found in BB, is not doable. According to Yfull's dates P312 was already expanding between 2,900 and 2,350 BC.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:19 am
Gioiello
Some posters are still writing about L51 and L11 as if they were part of some massive BA invasion. They still do not get it that L51>L11 was a single line of descent until the birth and expansion of P132, U106 and the smaller S1200 branch. If they are going to write about a massive movement of R1b then they should refer to P312 and there is absolutely no evidence that this or any movement was from the Ukraine. The expansion of P312 into Iberia was probably from France, not from any part of the Steppe.

There is map with lettered circles asking testers to guess where P312 originated. "C" is the most likely place and perhaps where B and C intersect. I don't know if ancient dna will ever answer the question that is being asked. We do know that west and south of "C" is where 1,000's of branches of P312 diverged and where P312 was most successful.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:36 pm
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
Some posters are still writing about L51 and L11 as if they were part of some massive BA invasion. They still do not get it that L51>L11 was a single line of descent until the birth and expansion of P132, U106 and the smaller S1200 branch. If they are going to write about a massive movement of R1b then they should refer to P312 and there is absolutely no evidence that this or any movement was from the Ukraine. The expansion of P312 into Iberia was probably from France, not from any part of the Steppe.

There is map with lettered circles asking testers to guess where P312 originated. "C" is the most likely place and perhaps where B and C intersect. I don't know if ancient dna will ever answer the question that is being asked. We do know that west and south of "C" is where 1,000's of branches of P312 diverged and where P312 was most successful.


Dartraighe, I unfortunately haven't this map many Anthrogenicians are speaking about. If you send that to me through mail I'd be glad. Anyway it is true that the L11 was only one person, but, as usual, there was a tribe of L11 or linked people from whom only one survived, and they have been found in aDNA in Germany. But we are waiting for understanding the true origin of Amerighi from Siena, the first modern man with a partial L11, actually an L52. He could be of German origin, but I wouldn't exclude a Tuscan or Italian one.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:52 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
Some posters are still writing about L51 and L11 as if they were part of some massive BA invasion. They still do not get it that L51>L11 was a single line of descent until the birth and expansion of P132, U106 and the smaller S1200 branch. If they are going to write about a massive movement of R1b then they should refer to P312 and there is absolutely no evidence that this or any movement was from the Ukraine. The expansion of P312 into Iberia was probably from France, not from any part of the Steppe.

There is map with lettered circles asking testers to guess where P312 originated. "C" is the most likely place and perhaps where B and C intersect. I don't know if ancient dna will ever answer the question that is being asked. We do know that west and south of "C" is where 1,000's of branches of P312 diverged and where P312 was most successful.


Dartraighe, I unfortunately haven't this map many Anthrogenicians are speaking about. If you send that to me through mail I'd be glad. Anyway it is true that the L11 was only one person, but, as usual, there was a tribe of L11 or linked people from whom only one survived, and they have been found in aDNA in Germany. But we are waiting for understanding the true origin of Amerighi from Siena, the first modern man with a partial L11, actually an L52. He could be of German origin, but I wouldn't exclude a Tuscan or Italian one.



One family only Gio, not 100's or 1,000's or we would see lots of them in the ancient grave sites. Between L11 and P312 or U106 we see no branches or YSNPs. The bottleneck is the reason that we cannot find the evidence just like we cannot locate "M269" in the ancient dna. You have to be looking at a very small group. L52* is a different branch to the majority of western Europeans. His Y-Line history is not our Y-line history.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:18 pm
dartraighe wrote:One family only Gio, not 100's or 1,000's or we would see lots of them in the ancient grave sites. Between L11 and P312 or U106 we see no branches or YSNPs. The bottleneck is the reason that we cannot find the evidence just like we cannot locate "M269" in the ancient dna. You have to be looking at a very small group. L52* is a different branch to the majority of western Europeans. His Y-Line history is not our Y-line history.


Of course I think you are wrong now. Partial R-L11 were many in the aDNA and I examined them from Genetiker's data (I thought he were Thomas Krahn, and I wrote that, and unfortunately he is not posting from many months), thus they were an high percentage among the aDNA in Germany and Amerighi is the only partial L11 found so far or even survived. I think that many will be fond in Italy and on the Rhone-Rhine line to Southern Germany. We'll see if Dritte Reich publishes his data and doesn't throw them in the garbage.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:17 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:One family only Gio, not 100's or 1,000's or we would see lots of them in the ancient grave sites. Between L11 and P312 or U106 we see no branches or YSNPs. The bottleneck is the reason that we cannot find the evidence just like we cannot locate "M269" in the ancient dna. You have to be looking at a very small group. L52* is a different branch to the majority of western Europeans. His Y-Line history is not our Y-line history.


Of course I think you are wrong now. Partial R-L11 were many in the aDNA and I examined them from Genetiker's data (I thought he were Thomas Krahn, and I wrote that, and unfortunately he is not posting from many months), thus they were an high percentage among the aDNA in Germany and Amerighi is the only partial L11 found so far or even survived. I think that many will be fond in Italy and on the Rhone-Rhine line to Southern Germany. We'll see if Dritte Reich publishes his data and doesn't throw them in the garbage.


A lot of the ancient dna samples are unresolved R1b just like the scy009 and Villabruna etc. You will have to find a way to determine the origin without ancient dna. Looking at the divergent branches in a region along with TMRCA estimates might be one way forward. How to sort the bottlenecks will be another problem. The scientists are in no hurry to publish some of the ancient dna results.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:13 pm
https://eu.freep.com/story/life/2018/10 ... 517018002/


"Adam Rutherford wasn’t surprised by the changes that came with the latest Ancestry update."
"Rutherford, 43, is a British geneticist, host of the BBC program Inside Science and author of "A Brief History of Everyone Who Ever Lived: The Human Story Retold Through Our Genes," which has received considerable critical acclaim.
He told the Free Press that people believe consumer genetics tests will match their DNA with a historical population, but that isn’t what happens.
“There isn’t a scientific method for establishing where your DNA has come from in the past. That doesn’t exist,” he said. “What these tests do is show where on Earth people who share your DNA are most likely to be today.”

"“I think the relationship between genetics and cultural identity is very minimal, almost to the point of being nonexistent,” Rutherford said.
After all, you’ll still be the same person after completing your family tree as you were beforehand. What truly shapes us culturally, Rutherford says, is the environment we grow up in and the people we decide to be."

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:21 pm
dartraighe wrote:https://eu.freep.com/story/life/2018/10/05/dna-testing-accuracy/1517018002/


"Adam Rutherford wasn’t surprised by the changes that came with the latest Ancestry update."
"Rutherford, 43, is a British geneticist, host of the BBC program Inside Science and author of "A Brief History of Everyone Who Ever Lived: The Human Story Retold Through Our Genes," which has received considerable critical acclaim.
He told the Free Press that people believe consumer genetics tests will match their DNA with a historical population, but that isn’t what happens.
“There isn’t a scientific method for establishing where your DNA has come from in the past. That doesn’t exist,” he said. “What these tests do is show where on Earth people who share your DNA are most likely to be today.”

"“I think the relationship between genetics and cultural identity is very minimal, almost to the point of being nonexistent,” Rutherford said.
After all, you’ll still be the same person after completing your family tree as you were beforehand. What truly shapes us culturally, Rutherford says, is the environment we grow up in and the people we decide to be."


I did know another Rutherford, more intelligent. There are so many morons among geneticists that one more one less... Of course there is the difficulty to link each of us to an aDNA sample, just because aDNA is tested partially, lacks many SNPs etc., but we are trying to understand where our direct ancestor very likely lived. Having many samples upstream mine living very likely in Italy at leat 4000 years ago I may infer that my ancestors lived in Italy then. We are trying to understand where their ancestors lived before. Of course meanwhile some descendant may have migrated elsewhere and after come back to Italy etc.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:14 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:https://eu.freep.com/story/life/2018/10/05/dna-testing-accuracy/1517018002/


"Adam Rutherford wasn’t surprised by the changes that came with the latest Ancestry update."
"Rutherford, 43, is a British geneticist, host of the BBC program Inside Science and author of "A Brief History of Everyone Who Ever Lived: The Human Story Retold Through Our Genes," which has received considerable critical acclaim.
He told the Free Press that people believe consumer genetics tests will match their DNA with a historical population, but that isn’t what happens.
“There isn’t a scientific method for establishing where your DNA has come from in the past. That doesn’t exist,” he said. “What these tests do is show where on Earth people who share your DNA are most likely to be today.”

"“I think the relationship between genetics and cultural identity is very minimal, almost to the point of being nonexistent,” Rutherford said.
After all, you’ll still be the same person after completing your family tree as you were beforehand. What truly shapes us culturally, Rutherford says, is the environment we grow up in and the people we decide to be."


I did know another Rutherford, more intelligent. There are so many morons among geneticists that one more one less... Of course there is the difficulty to link each of us to an aDNA sample, just because aDNA is tested partially, lacks many SNPs etc., but we are trying to understand where our direct ancestor very likely lived. Having many samples upstream mine living very likely in Italy at leat 4000 years ago I may infer that my ancestors lived in Italy then. We are trying to understand where their ancestors lived before. Of course meanwhile some descendant may have migrated elsewhere and after come back to Italy etc.



"In genetics, when a small number of ancestors give rise to many descendants, it known as a founder event or, alternatively, a population bottleneck." Just like M269>L51>L11>P312and U106!
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