Who's your (proto) daddy Western Europeans?

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:36 am
dartraighe wrote:"In genetics, when a small number of ancestors give rise to many descendants, it known as a founder event or, alternatively, a population bottleneck." Just like M269>L51>L11>P312and U106!


Dartraighe, I reason with my mind and not with the Dritte Reich's one. You, or any other, cannot think that in the bottleneck for thousands of years there has been un unique line of descent: a father who had an only one male son and so on. What I said is more likely, I'd say certain: in any population only one line surives in the long time, as in a hamlet only a few or one surname survives and so on. This is the "science" demonstrated, all the other is wrong.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:57 am
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:"In genetics, when a small number of ancestors give rise to many descendants, it known as a founder event or, alternatively, a population bottleneck." Just like M269>L51>L11>P312and U106!


Dartraighe, I reason with my mind and not with the Dritte Reich's one. You, or any other, cannot think that in the bottleneck for thousands of years there has been un unique line of descent: a father who had an only one male son and so on. What I said is more likely, I'd say certain: in any population only one line surives in the long time, as in a hamlet only a few or one surname survives and so on. This is the "science" demonstrated, all the other is wrong.


Gio , P312, U106 and S1200 who make up the majority of R1b in western Europe belong to a single line of descent because they all have the same YSNPs upstream , the exact same paternal ancestors for 2,000 years. That is our unique Y line. Other branches may have split of during that era but we are not descended from them. They went their own way and have a separate history. And the two lines that did split off are tiny within the R1b population. The males who did not survive are not relevant to our origin story.


The M222 group is a good example to look at. They were really anonymous within the R1b population for 2,300 years and mushroomed 2,000 ybp. And they are one of the main subgroups within the Irish population today. I don't believe there were thousands of sons who did not survive because the scientists cannot find the dna from the ancient graves. The same way that M269 cannot be found before the BA and they looked at 1,000's of ancient dna samples. That shows you how small the group was.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:01 am
dartraighe wrote:Gio , P312, U106 and S1200 who make up the majority of R1b in western Europe belong to a single line of descent because they all have the same YSNPs upstream , the exact same paternal ancestors for 2,000 years. That is our unique Y line. Other branches may have split of during that era but we are not descended from them. They went their own way and have a separate history. And the two lines that did split off are tiny within the R1b population. The males who did not survive are not relevant to our origin story.


The M222 group is a good example to look at. They were really anonymous within the R1b population for 2,300 years and mushroomed 2,000 ybp. And they are one of the main subgroups within the Irish population today. I don't believe there were thousands of sons who did not survive because the scientists cannot find the dna from the ancient graves. The same way that M269 cannot be found before the BA and they looked at 1,000's of ancient dna samples. That shows you how small the group was.


"The males who did not survive are not relevant to our origin story".

Of course that isn't true, because we are investigating just these secondary lines, or even dead end lines, just for understanding the origin of the principal line, otherwise Mal'ta boy (a dead end line of R1* of 24000 ya wouldn't be so studied, so important to make pretty all think that R1 was born in central Asia and not elsewhere). To understand if Amerighi (R-L52*) descends from a German noble family or from an old Tuscan line is fundamental for that.

Of course for doing that a population might have transmitted at least one line of its people to a descent it needs a critical number of people, that mathematicians may calculate... and here science stays and not ideology or desires.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:23 am
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:Gio , P312, U106 and S1200 who make up the majority of R1b in western Europe belong to a single line of descent because they all have the same YSNPs upstream , the exact same paternal ancestors for 2,000 years. That is our unique Y line. Other branches may have split of during that era but we are not descended from them. They went their own way and have a separate history. And the two lines that did split off are tiny within the R1b population. The males who did not survive are not relevant to our origin story.


The M222 group is a good example to look at. They were really anonymous within the R1b population for 2,300 years and mushroomed 2,000 ybp. And they are one of the main subgroups within the Irish population today. I don't believe there were thousands of sons who did not survive because the scientists cannot find the dna from the ancient graves. The same way that M269 cannot be found before the BA and they looked at 1,000's of ancient dna samples. That shows you how small the group was.


"The males who did not survive are not relevant to our origin story".

Of course that isn't true, because we are investigating just these secondary lines, or even dead end lines, just for understanding the origin of the principal line, otherwise Mal'ta boy (a dead end line of R1* of 24000 ya wouldn't be so studied, so important to make pretty all think that R1 was born in central Asia and not elsewhere). To understand if Amerighi (R-L52*) descends from a German noble family or from an old Tuscan line is fundamental for that.

Of course for doing that a population might have transmitted at least one line of its people to a descent it needs a critical number of people, that mathematicians may calculate... and here science stays and not ideology or desires.


It does not matter whether the L52* tester ancestors are Germans or Tuscans. They are recent identities. That is no indication where his ancestors came from 6,000 ybp. People move and carry their YSNPs with them. The number of divergent branches and the location may be a clue to the origin place but it will only be through ancient dna samples that are resolved in line with the branches for the TMRCA estimated. And Mal'ta boy's R1 dead line has no bearing at all on modern western European R1b.

For the scy009 sample the branch should be something like the Y17091 time scale and not L2. If we look at all the divergent branches of DF27 in Iberia we can perhaps estimate an origin time for DF27 there. We know that it was not magnetic attraction or chain migration that led to the DF27 hotspot in Iberia and the same goes for L21 in Ireland. The Rathlin Island DF21 ancient dna sample was one of the best resolved samples so far.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:59 pm
There is a little discussion about U152 and the Italians. I was looking at Yfull's U152 tree and there are 73 Italian samples and I presume branches, early and more recent. Ireland has 24 and Germany 17. The Czech Republic 6 and Hungary zero. One should look at all the divergent branches within Italy plus the TMRCA's to get a handle on the origin of U152 and L2. There are links between Ireland and Italy during the BA. It is possible that the Halberd prototype may have come from Italy. Metal working commenced earlier in Italy than in Ireland.

irisharchaeology.ie/2011/04/261/

"This brought the two authors to a series of rock art depictions from Mont Bego, Italy which show a number of people holding halberds in what appears to be a ritualised fight or dance. Could this be a representation of a ‘Crane dance’ ? When hafted like in the Mont Bego depictions the halberd looks remarkably like the beak, head and neck of a crane. The halberd was always a puzzling object as it would have been a very weak and ineffective weapon. This new theory that it, instead, may have been related to a ritualised dance is compelling."

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:28 am
U152 has to be in Italy for at least 4,500 years. Liguria which has the ancient copper mines is a hotspot for U152*. The Irish metal workers may have come from Liguria>Languedoc>Kerry. I hope that Dr.Cassidy found U152 in BA samples from Kerry.

Gio
We need a dna paper on the ancient samples tested from north of the Black Sea ASAP that proves that P312 and all his sons originated there and the same goes for U106 and his sons. That is the only dna paper that is of any real importance to the majority of R1b testers in western Europe. Why are we waiting so long for this dna paper with the evidence to be made public???????????????? All the other western/central European dna papers are irrelevant.
Previous

Return to General DNA Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests