About R-M73 again


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:28 pm
Meanwhile we are waiting that a sample of the Western European cluster of R-M73 (xM478) is submitted to YFull, I may say that if the Eastern European/Asian cluster (R-M73-M478) with 38 SNP (I dont understand why YFull doesn't recognize Y13886) from 13300ybp bifurcated 7300 years ago, the Western European cluster with 26 shared SNPs separated 9200 years ago (always as to the YFull dates), thus the samples found in Latvia and Russia about 7500 years ago aren't very likely the ancestors of the Western European cluster but only of the Eastern European/Asian one.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:26 am
Gioiello wrote:Meanwhile we are waiting that a sample of the Western European cluster of R-M73 (xM478) is submitted to YFull, I may say that if the Eastern European/Asian cluster (R-M73-M478) with 38 SNP (I dont understand why YFull doesn't recognize Y13886) from 13300ybp bifurcated 7300 years ago, the Western European cluster with 26 shared SNPs separated 9200 years ago (always as to the YFull dates), thus the samples found in Latvia and Russia about 7500 years ago aren't very likely the ancestors of the Western European cluster but only of the Eastern European/Asian one.



You can find other M478 testers with the first 10 out of 12 markers in the info page. Yfull gives only the first 10 out of the 12 but the other markers can be picked up at semargl.me. Some of the M478 testers have unusual haplotypes for R1b. M478 has eastern European branches and western European branches and you are right no western Europeans M478 testers at Yfull yet.

Anyone with an account at Yfull can download the STR variants where they can see all the ancestral and derived values for all the YSTRs in their branch. I have 15 private YSTR mutations or those that are specific to my most recent branch.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:09 pm
I think that Yfull has got the TMRCA for M478 wrong. M269 and M478 haplogroup brothers both originated around 13,300 years ago. The M478 bottleneck lasted for 37 YSNPs and the M269 bottleneck lasted for 103 YSNPs, so M478 is the older branch. The TMRCA for M478 is 7,300 ybp and the TMRCA for M269 is 6,400 ybp. More than twice as many SNPs occured in M269 than M478 which needs to be looked at. The M478 haplotypes are more diverse than M269 haplotypes.

I don't think that the origin of M478 has any bearing on the origin of M269. They two subhaplogroups had different historys.

The large number of SNPs in M269 compared to M478 may be from M269 testers with FGC Y elite results! FTDNA shows a smaller number of YSNPs at the M269 level than Yfull.com

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:25 am
A lot of R1b testers and I are waiting on the first P312 or U106 to be published from an ancient dna sample from the Steppe. We have had 12 years of speculation and one million disputes about the origin of the western European branches of R1b namely P312 and U106. So why 12 years on and 1000's of ancient dna tests has this not been resolved? No more BS about steppe autosomal dna and the PIE. The scientists just have to publish the ydna results from the Russian Steppe that proves beyond all doubt the origin of western European R1b!!!!!

My view is that the ancestors of millions of R1b western Europeans survived in a small pocket somewhere in western/central Europe and expanded with the birth of the BBC. That is what the evidence shows at present and I am not the only tester who thinks this.


Here is an article on the BB.
https://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/ ... omplex.htm

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:18 pm
It does not matter to most R1b P312 and U106 whether the PIE originated in the Caucasus or the Steppe, it matters only where R1b P312 and U106 originated. The Caucasus and the Steppe are both wrong for the P312 and U106 origin. There is a small group of R1b fanatics who propose that R1b L11 founded the PIE and those are the people who are causing a lot of disputes on forums. They need to get over their pet theories and their insecurities.


Some posters are keen to ignore the fact that the first farmers spread throughout Europe between 8,000 and 6,000 ybp. They were not deaf and dumb. They spoke a language and they spread that language where ever they went and there were lots of them because the evidence shows that there was a population explosion during the Neolithic. That language was not wiped out by later migrations. The fact that they did not belong to R1b is the reason that a few cannot not accept that the farmers carried the PIE.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:02 pm
http://eurogenes.blogspot.ie/2018/04/li ... -into.html
"Despite being stratigraphically dated to 5900-5500 BCE (ie. the Chalcolithic period), ancient sample Hajji_Firuz I2327 from Narasimhan et al. 2018, belongs to Y-haplogroup R1b-Z2103 and shows minor, but unambiguous, Yamnaya-related ancestry on the autosomes. Why is this a problem? Because both R1b-Z2103 and the Yamnaya culture are dated to the Bronze Age, and Yamnaya samples from Kalmykia and Samara are exceptionally rich in R1b-Z2103."

Here is another example of a Steppe fanatic trying to twist the facts. The ancestor of Z2103 did not originate in the Steppe. Hajji_Firuz I2327 is older than the Steppe Z2103 samples and he forgets that he is the one that suggested that the Yamnaya were 40% CHG which shows a migration from the Caucasus to Steppe, probably in the Neolithic or it could have been earlier. The Kurgan idea came from the Caucasus also.

The fact that some Z2103 was found in the Steppe gave the Steppe fanatics a reason to suggest that L51 originated there also. The proof of an L51 nor L11 origin in the Steppe has not been found yet. If it is found then we will say fair play, you were right.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:00 pm
dartraighe wrote:http://eurogenes.blogspot.ie/2018/04/likely-yamnaya-incursions-into.html
"Despite being stratigraphically dated to 5900-5500 BCE (ie. the Chalcolithic period), ancient sample Hajji_Firuz I2327 from Narasimhan et al. 2018, belongs to Y-haplogroup R1b-Z2103 and shows minor, but unambiguous, Yamnaya-related ancestry on the autosomes. Why is this a problem? Because both R1b-Z2103 and the Yamnaya culture are dated to the Bronze Age, and Yamnaya samples from Kalmykia and Samara are exceptionally rich in R1b-Z2103."

Here is another example of a Steppe fanatic trying to twist the facts. The ancestor of Z2103 did not originate in the Steppe. Hajji_Firuz I2327 is older than the Steppe Z2103 samples and he forgets that he is the one that suggested that the Yamnaya were 40% CHG which shows a migration from the Caucasus to Steppe, probably in the Neolithic or it could have been earlier. The Kurgan idea came from the Caucasus also.

The fact that some Z2103 was found in the Steppe gave the Steppe fanatics a reason to suggest that L51 originated there also. The proof of an L51 nor L11 origin in the Steppe has not been found yet. If it is found then we will say fair play, you were right.


But there are less proofs that R1b originated in Middle East or Iran. Who knows my writings he knows that I have explained from so long the strategy of these scholars, all belonging to the "leftist/Jewish/gay" stock, from the "Jewish-Nigger conspiracy" about the so-called "Out of Africa" (it seems now that also Dritte Reich has some doubts about that), to the levantinist/kurganist/levantinist conspiracy about the origin of not only R1b but also of the EEF. Of course about this R-Z2103 in Iran (note that it is my haplogroup) it will be important to know not only the age but also the subclade. Ahahahah, but they found one sample out of hundreds samples tested... whereas in Italy we have not more than 6 samples tested from 14000 to 4200 years ago!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:37 pm
Enjoy with this post, before that Davidski deletes that:
Unlnown said...
Davidski is a pathetic little cocksucking whore, likely fucked in the ass by some indian dude who also cucked him, made him watch while the indian dude fucked his wife or mother.
R1b and R1a is intrusive in eastern europe, it came from the east/south and the original carriers where not light skinned and not european looking.
Yamnaya themselves were not lightskinned and not european looking.
Davidski has been wrong about pretty much everything here and regardless of whether he bans certain posters or not, they are correct and he is wrong.
April 23, 2018 at 7:00 AM

These are people that Europe let enter its territory, and Poles like Davidski think that Russians are their enemies, the unique who have the means for solving the question, from their roots.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:09 pm
It is important to use the correct language in your posts because it will take away from you any of the good research that you have done down though the years.

The Z2103 in Iran is good news because it shows how widespread Z2103 was 5,000-6,000 years ago but I seriously doubt that the Z2103 is 8,000 ybp. The earliest P312 ancient dna sample is around 2,600-2,700 BC and that is close to the TMRCA that Yfull gives for P312. The earliest U106 found 2,200 BC so Yfull is not too far away with their dates.

There are 20 YSNPs between L23 and U106/P312 so the dates for L23 must be good also.

If the source population for U106 and P312 was the western Ukraine, then the P312 and u106 ancient dna samples will need to be at least 500 years earlier than those found in western Europe.

Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
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YDNA:
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:05 am
dartraighe wrote:It is important to use the correct language in your posts because it will take away from you any of the good research that you have done down though the years.

The Z2103 in Iran is good news because it shows how widespread Z2103 was 5,000-6,000 years ago but I seriously doubt that the Z2103 is 8,000 ybp. The earliest P312 ancient dna sample is around 2,600-2,700 BC and that is close to the TMRCA that Yfull gives for P312. The earliest U106 found 2,200 BC so Yfull is not too far away with their dates.

There are 20 YSNPs between L23 and U106/P312 so the dates for L23 must be good also.

If the source population for U106 and P312 was the western Ukraine, then the P312 and u106 ancient dna samples will need to be at least 500 years earlier than those found in western Europe.


Dartraighe, I'll answer all your questions next, because English isn't my language and the argument is so complex (de facto there are many persons and many peoples that fight against the truth: Jews above all with FTDNA and all these Jewish researchers, Indian Nationalists, even Egyptians about Tutankhamon etc, and every people also very little: the last an Italian R-M335 who, coming from an Arbereshe hamlet in Calabria, Italy, put "Albania" as his origin without other inquire about the origin of his line, which may be also from Albania, but that should be demonstrated). But look at this post of Davidski:
Davidski said...
@Open Genomes

This looks much cleaner. I can try to run it in the G25 later today. But if you can tighten up the quality scores some more, that'd be great, because there are lot of markers to work with.

K7 DA101
Ancient_North_Eurasian 36.17
Basal-rich 18.62
East_Eurasian 20.46
Oceanian 0.36
Southeast_Asian 0.19
Sub-Saharan 1.18
Villabruna-related 23.02

Btw, I've got things set up here to convert commercial data files very quickly into PLINK and eigenstrat formats, so it's easy for me to work with these sorts of zip files.
April 23, 2018 at 5:21 PM
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