The point about my subclade


Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:37 am
_f3a0. R1b-Z2103 > Z2106 >Z2109 > CTS7822 > CTS699
546295 Unknown Origin R-CTS699 12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-14-16-16 11 10 18-23 15 16 17 19 36-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
_f3a1. R1b-Z2103 > Z2106 >Z2109 > CTS7822 > FGC24408"
259327 Anders Joensen Aune 1651-1708 Stadsbygd STR Norway R-FGC24408 12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-10 11 11 25 16 19 28 14-15-16-18 11 10 19-23 15 16 18 16 36-36 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 11 3415916122726181212131211911121011123012122414101122152113221914142412231811131891111
M11086 Unknown Origin R-FGC24408 12 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-10 10 11 24 15 18 29 14-15-16-18 11 12 19-22 15 16 17 16 36-36 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 24-25 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 3215916122726181211141210912121011113112132514101020151912241712152412231810141791211
_f3a1a. R1b-Z2103 > Z2106 >Z2109 > CTS7822 > FGC24408 > SK2097
184381 Melik-Matevosian, Banants, Gardmank, Armenia Armenia R-SK2097 12 24 13 11 12-14 12 13 13 13 13 30 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-15-16-18 10 11 19-23 15 16 20 18 36-38 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 9 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 22 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12 36159161225261912111312119121210111130121324141092015191423191315241223189141991111
263455 Georgia R-SK2097 12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 16 19 18 37-39 14 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 22-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
225200 Fabiano Maddamma, b. 1884 Villetta Barrea L'Aquila Italy R-SK2097 12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-9 11 11 24 15 19 30 14-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 16 17 19 37-38 13 12 11 9 14-16 8 10 10 8 9 11 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 331591612262619121113121091212101111301214241410919151913241712152412231811141791111
367046 Carmine Antonio Cinque, Nocelle, Positano SA, IT Italy R-SK2097 12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-15-15-16 11 11 19-23 15 15 20 17 38-38 12 12
272057 Winterowd Unknown Origin R-SK2097 12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 26 15 18 29 14-15-16-18 12 12 19-23 14 16 18 17 37-38 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-24 15 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 321591612242619111112121091212101111301214241410919151913241712152512231710141791111
H1614 Antonio del Badia (1449-?) Castelfiorentino (Firen Italy R-Z2105 12 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 12 29 16 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 14-14-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 19 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 321591611252619121113121091211101111301214241410920151914231812152412231810141891111
H1621 Antonio del Badia (1449-?) Castelfiorentino (Firen Italy R-M269 12 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14-14-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 12 12 13 13 11301214241410 23 11
_f3a2. R1b-Z2103 > Z2106 >Z2109 > CTS7822 > PH317
N112116 Hristo Nochev (~1870-1945) Chelopech; YF01886 Bulgaria R-PH317 12 22 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 29 15 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 14-16-17-18 11 11 18-23 15 16 19 17 37-37 11 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 17 8 11 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
_

What should I think about my Y? One of the line downstream Z2110/CTS7822 is FGC24408 (all these linked SNPs come from my Full Genome). The oldest samples separated are 259327 from Norway and M11086, an Arab (Badow) who didn’t pay the fee at YFull and in fact he isn’t in the tree and above all his data aren’t in the group. I couldn’t pay for him at YFull. Of course to know his origin would be important to me, because if he were from Maghreb would get a different meaning as to Iraq or elsewhere. From Maghreb to Skandinavia we find an old expansion from the Iberian refuge etc. He has been tested (badly) from Big Y, and I know that of my 82 SNPs recognized from YFull (but I have much more) he has in common with me only this FGC24408, but he has 36 no calls out of the other 81 SNPs. The same this person from Norway. In my line, signed with the SNP SK2097 (with other my 16 SNPs) I find relatives in a French Basque, in this Winterowd, but also in an Armenian and a Georgian of one of the noblest family of that country. But now many Italians belong to my subclade, and not only Cinque from Salento, who could get a common Etruscan origin with me, but also Maddamma/Madama from Abruzzi (not Etruscan region but Samnites/Italics), and others very likely belong to my subclade from their haplotype. Thus, in spite that many think that R-L23 came all from Samara/Yamnaya, the presence in Italy is massive. Of course I don’t agree with the YFull dates (5100 ya), that I think much older.

Posts: 2231
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:08 am
Gioiello wrote:_f3a0. R1b-Z2103 > Z2106 >Z2109 > CTS7822 > CTS699
546295 Unknown Origin R-CTS699 12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-14-16-16 11 10 18-23 15 16 17 19 36-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
_f3a1. R1b-Z2103 > Z2106 >Z2109 > CTS7822 > FGC24408"
259327 Anders Joensen Aune 1651-1708 Stadsbygd STR Norway R-FGC24408 12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-10 11 11 25 16 19 28 14-15-16-18 11 10 19-23 15 16 18 16 36-36 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 11 3415916122726181212131211911121011123012122414101122152113221914142412231811131891111
M11086 Unknown Origin R-FGC24408 12 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-10 10 11 24 15 18 29 14-15-16-18 11 12 19-22 15 16 17 16 36-36 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 24-25 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 3215916122726181211141210912121011113112132514101020151912241712152412231810141791211
_f3a1a. R1b-Z2103 > Z2106 >Z2109 > CTS7822 > FGC24408 > SK2097
184381 Melik-Matevosian, Banants, Gardmank, Armenia Armenia R-SK2097 12 24 13 11 12-14 12 13 13 13 13 30 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-15-16-18 10 11 19-23 15 16 20 18 36-38 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 9 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 22 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12 36159161225261912111312119121210111130121324141092015191423191315241223189141991111
263455 Georgia R-SK2097 12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 16 19 18 37-39 14 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 22-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
225200 Fabiano Maddamma, b. 1884 Villetta Barrea L'Aquila Italy R-SK2097 12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-9 11 11 24 15 19 30 14-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 16 17 19 37-38 13 12 11 9 14-16 8 10 10 8 9 11 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 331591612262619121113121091212101111301214241410919151913241712152412231811141791111
367046 Carmine Antonio Cinque, Nocelle, Positano SA, IT Italy R-SK2097 12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-15-15-16 11 11 19-23 15 15 20 17 38-38 12 12
272057 Winterowd Unknown Origin R-SK2097 12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 26 15 18 29 14-15-16-18 12 12 19-23 14 16 18 17 37-38 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-24 15 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 321591612242619111112121091212101111301214241410919151913241712152512231710141791111
H1614 Antonio del Badia (1449-?) Castelfiorentino (Firen Italy R-Z2105 12 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 12 29 16 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 14-14-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 19 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 321591611252619121113121091211101111301214241410920151914231812152412231810141891111
H1621 Antonio del Badia (1449-?) Castelfiorentino (Firen Italy R-M269 12 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14-14-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 12 12 13 13 11301214241410 23 11
_f3a2. R1b-Z2103 > Z2106 >Z2109 > CTS7822 > PH317
N112116 Hristo Nochev (~1870-1945) Chelopech; YF01886 Bulgaria R-PH317 12 22 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 29 15 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 14-16-17-18 11 11 18-23 15 16 19 17 37-37 11 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 17 8 11 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
_

What should I think about my Y? One of the line downstream Z2110/CTS7822 is FGC24408 (all these linked SNPs come from my Full Genome). The oldest samples separated are 259327 from Norway and M11086, an Arab (Badow) who didn’t pay the fee at YFull and in fact he isn’t in the tree and above all his data aren’t in the group. I couldn’t pay for him at YFull. Of course to know his origin would be important to me, because if he were from Maghreb would get a different meaning as to Iraq or elsewhere. From Maghreb to Skandinavia we find an old expansion from the Iberian refuge etc. He has been tested (badly) from Big Y, and I know that of my 82 SNPs recognized from YFull (but I have much more) he has in common with me only this FGC24408, but he has 36 no calls out of the other 81 SNPs. The same this person from Norway. In my line, signed with the SNP SK2097 (with other my 16 SNPs) I find relatives in a French Basque, in this Winterowd, but also in an Armenian and a Georgian of one of the noblest family of that country. But now many Italians belong to my subclade, and not only Cinque from Salento, who could get a common Etruscan origin with me, but also Maddamma/Madama from Abruzzi (not Etruscan region but Samnites/Italics), and others very likely belong to my subclade from their haplotype. Thus, in spite that many think that R-L23 came all from Samara/Yamnaya, the presence in Italy is massive. Of course I don’t agree with the YFull dates (5100 ya), that I think much older.


How many of your closest YSTR matches has tested with FGC? I would think none. You need to get your 81 YSNPs on the FTDNA tree to find YSNP matches.

Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:26 am
dartraighe wrote:How many of your closest YSTR matches has tested with FGC? I would think none. You need to get your 81 YSNPs on the FTDNA tree to find YSNP matches.


Of course none of this people has been tested with Full Genome, but the issue isn't that.
1) First of all I have more than 82 SNPs. And 12 are with only 1 reading, and YFull doesn't consider them in its calculation, but they are all good, very good, thus the age of YFull is largely underestimated.
2) Who has been tested through Big Y is in the R-M343 (xP312,xU106) tree of the FTDNA, managed from the very good Sergey Malyshev (and now from Atanas Kumbarov) and their SNPs are completely checked, thus nothing could be added.
3) I fully know the situation of my haplogroup, and if I haven't so far decided about its oldest origin (Italy, Caucasus/Samara, Aegean Islands and Etruscan migration, come to Italy in the Middle Ages with the invasions etc) it is because we lack so far other data and above all the aDNA, what will come very likely in the future.

Posts: 2231
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:36 am
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:How many of your closest YSTR matches has tested with FGC? I would think none. You need to get your 81 YSNPs on the FTDNA tree to find YSNP matches.


Of course none of this people has been tested with Full Genome, but the issue isn't that.
1) First of all I have more than 82 SNPs. And 12 are with only 1 reading, and YFull doesn't consider them in its calculation, but they are all good, very good, thus the age of YFull is largely underestimated.
2) Who has been tested through Big Y is in the R-M343 (xP312,xU106) tree of the FTDNA, managed from the very good Sergey Malyshev (and now from Atanas Kumbarov) and their SNPs are completely checked, thus nothing could be added.
3) I fully know the situation of my haplogroup, and if I haven't so far decided about its oldest origin (Italy, Caucasus/Samara, Aegean Islands and Etruscan migration, come to Italy in the Middle Ages with the invasions etc) it is because we lack so far other data and above all the aDNA, what will come very likely in the future.


The TMRCA for your branch is not going to change no matter how many YSNPs you find in your dna. Yfull has estimated the TMRCA of R1b branches using ancient dna samples so they cannot be that far out with their calculations. Dr Iain McDonald's estimates are similar to Yfull's.

Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:56 pm
dartraighe wrote:The TMRCA for your branch is not going to change no matter how many YSNPs you find in your dna. Yfull has estimated the TMRCA of R1b branches using ancient dna samples so they cannot be that far out with their calculations. Dr Iain McDonald's estimates are similar to Yfull's.


It seemed to many of us that just the aDNA didn't fit with the YFull calculations, also one of the last paper of the Cruciani's group. Anyway all the YFull calculation is based on the presupposition that A00 and A0-T separated 239500 ya (if I remember wel) whereas others think 275000 (the same Poznik and others ) and Shi Huang and his school more than 300000. If you look at the P312 tree, there are so many and much more every day subclades signed P312* and I think that some issue there is. Beyond that aDNA isn't able to give results for their calculation, being partially tested, thus I continue to think that their calculations are largely underestimated. We'll see in the future. All the calculations based upon STRs are even less reliable.

Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:33 pm
1 BT BT 1,00 95.226 ##### ###### YFULL 88000
2 DT DT 1,00 69.507 ##### 73.221
3 CT CT 1,00 68.778 ##### 72.248 68500
4 F F 1,00 49.820 ##### 51.886 48800
5 K2(NO'P) K2(NO'P) 1,00 46.398 ##### 47.921 45400
These are the ages as to the last paper on Tibetans. Compare that with YFull tree (in red).

Posts: 2231
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:58 am
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:The TMRCA for your branch is not going to change no matter how many YSNPs you find in your dna. Yfull has estimated the TMRCA of R1b branches using ancient dna samples so they cannot be that far out with their calculations. Dr Iain McDonald's estimates are similar to Yfull's.


It seemed to many of us that just the aDNA didn't fit with the YFull calculations, also one of the last paper of the Cruciani's group. Anyway all the YFull calculation is based on the presupposition that A00 and A0-T separated 239500 ya (if I remember wel) whereas others think 275000 (the same Poznik and others ) and Shi Huang and his school more than 300000. If you look at the P312 tree, there are so many and much more every day subclades signed P312* and I think that some issue there is. Beyond that aDNA isn't able to give results for their calculation, being partially tested, thus I continue to think that their calculations are largely underestimated. We'll see in the future. All the calculations based upon STRs are even less reliable.



Gioiello
P312 has not been found in any ancient dna in Neolithic sites so it is alright to think that P312 is not a Neolithic YDNA haplogroup. It is hard to explain how 50 plus branches under P312 have similar TMRCA's but that may not be the case. It is what Yfull shows. The scientists will probably unravel this puzzle in the future.

In the meantime I would like to see the scientists produce the evidence of the massive R1b invasion from the Steppe. It certainly is not doable from the ancient and modern dna results too date. The scientists would have to show all of the major subgroups of P312,S1200 and U106 forming in the Steppe before the invasion because they all have a TMRCA of around 4,500.

It does not really matter to most about the origin or TMRCA of A00.

Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:13 am
This I wrote yesterday and I didn’t post here:
@ Hello morons!
“Romulus

R1b found in Kura - Araxes is V1636+ which is a rare lineage today present in many places from Volga Tatarstan to Europe and West Asia. https://yfull.com/tree/R-V1636/

R-L389 found in the Caucasus and nearby is only a subclade with YCAII=23-23 derived from western European (above all Italian) samples with YCAII=18-23. I fucked your ass with my 19 cm already more than ten years ago!

And now this other moron:
“Today, 05:50 AM
epoch replied to a thread The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus[preprint Harvard/Jena] in Ancient (aDNA)
Considering Blätterhöhle I'd suggest that pockets of higher WHG admixture could survive. They were tied to fishing IIRC. In the Netherlands there was...”

Didn’t they all understand that R1 was the haplogroup of the European hunter-gatherers as also Mathieson said (many years after me) but with a few of courage against Dritte Reich?

Posts: 2231
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:11 pm
Gioiello wrote:Didn’t they all understand that R1 was the haplogroup of the European hunter-gatherers ?



R1 was the haplogroup of the European hunter-gatherers. There is no denying that. I don't think that the origin place and home of the M269 clan who lived through the bottleneck will ever be found.


If M73 is found in Native Americans it is possible that this group crossed the Bearing Strait with Q1.

Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:59 pm
dartraighe wrote:R1 was the haplogroup of the European hunter-gatherers. There is no denying that. I don't think that the origin place and home of the M269 clan who lived through the bottleneck will ever be found.

If M73 is found in Native Americans it is possible that this group crossed the Bearing Strait with Q1.


Who was so stupid to say that hg. R-M73 was found in Native Americans? First of all R-M73 (xM478) is only in Western Europe and clearly it doesn’t derive from Eastern European and Asian R-M73-M478. In second place I checked all the Native American samples and found only 1 R1b1 of the type found in Italy and the Isles and it was clearly introgressed in Native American pool from some person of European origin. These people are all morons, who don’t know anything about this matter and, as I said elsewhere, they lost they lost against me. Certainly you know this other moron, perhaps the moron of the morons:

Richard Stevens
I apologize if someone has already asked about this, but I am hoping Vladimir, Vadim, Roman or one of our other Russian guys can get to the bottom of this mystery. Back in January, a member of Molgen who identifies himself as Alexei Butin posted the following there:
Re: Новости археологии
« Ответ #1550 : 27 Январь 2018, 19:48:18 »
Здравствуйте. Сегодня прошла XIV самарская археологическая конференция. Были заслушены следующие доклады.
Хохлов А.А. Предварительные результаты антрополого-генетических исследований материалов Волго-Уралья периода неолита-ранней бронзы международной группой ученых.
В своем докладе Хохлов А.А. вводил в научный оборот пока неопубликованные данные нового энеолитического могильника Екатириновский мыс, который сочетает в себе, как мариупольские так и хвалынские черты, и относится к 4 четверти V тыс. до н.э. Все проанализированные образцы имели уралоидный антропологический тип, игрек хромосома всех образцов принадлежала к гаплогруппе R1b1a2 (R - P 312/ S 116), и гаплогруппе R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2. Мито к гаплогруппам U2, U4, U5. В Хвалынских могильниках (1 половина IV тыс. до н.э.) антропологический материал отличается бОльшим разнообразием. Кроме уралоидного субстрата фиксируется европеодный широколицый и южноевропеоидные варианты. К игрек гаплогруппам добавляются R1a1, O1a1, I2a2 к мито T2a1b, H2a1.
So, can someone find out from Dr. Khokhlov if that is true? Has R1b-P312 actually been found at Ekaterinovsky Cape in Khvalynsk skeletons from the fourth quarter of the 5th millennium BC (4250-4000 BC)? My wife, who is Russian, tried sending Khokhlov an email, but we haven't received an answer. This seems pretty important to me.
Thanks!
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