Morons at work


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:13 am
Blogger Ric Hern said...
This is particularly interesting :
"Finally, we observe a genetic link between Epipaleolithic Near-Easterners and post-glacial European hunter-gatherers that suggests a bidirectional genetic exchange between Europe and the Near East predating 15,000 years ago."
Wonder if R1b(V88)s Ancestors were among them ? And I wonder if Villabruna was a sign of a Migration who fanned out in different directions with some migrating into Anatolia Pre-15 000 years ago ?
And this:
"By using a comparative dataset of modern and ancient genomes, we estimate that the earliest Anatolian farmers derive over 90 percent of their ancestry from the local Epipaleolithic population, indicating a high degree of genetic continuity throughout the Neolithic transition."
Wonder if the migration from Iran displaced some Locals ? Maybe R1b(V88) who ended up in the Sahara ?
-------------------------------
This from "Eurogenes blog" even though not always from Mr Eurogenes. Of course morons are always at work:
1) Of course many don't digest the truth that R-V88 (and all R1) didn't come from Middle East (the so called levantinists, who believe that the Bible is a serious thing).
2) Thus this moron hypothesizes that R-V88 was in Middle East but was displaced westwards to Africa from a supposed invasion from East.
3) Of course morons don't consider that African and Arabian R-V88 aren't older than 5300 years whereas we have in Western Europe (above all Italy and the Isles) subclades separated 12000 and 9000 years ago, long before the subclades present to-day in Africa.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:33 am
POA-238 Efficiently integrating ancient DNA into modern Y chromosome trees

Rui Martiniano 1, 2, Lara Cassidy 3, Daniel Bradley 3, Richard Durbin 1, 2

1 University of Cambridge (United Kingdom),
2 Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute (United Kingdom),
3 Trinity College Dublin (Ireland)

"During the last decade, a huge wealth of ancient Y chromosome data has been generated as part of whole-genome shotgun and target capture sequencing studies. However, given the highly degraded nature of ancient DNA (aDNA) data, post-mortem deamination and often low genomic coverage, combining ancient and modern samples for phylogenetic analyses remains challenging. Most analyses use limited markers and/or extensive manual curation.
Current standard methods for the analysis of Y chromosome data focus on known, gold-standard markers, but these contain only a subset of the total Y chromosomal variation.
Examining all polymorphic markers is particularly useful when dealing with low coverage aDNA data because it substantially increases the number of overlapping sites between present-day and ancient individuals and it may also help uncover relationships inaccessible via standard known variation.
We provide an automated workflow for jointly analysing ancient and present-day sequence data using all uniquely mappable regions of the Y chromosome. From a given high-coverage dataset, a maximum likelihood phylogeny is estimated and variants are assigned to each branch of the tree. Next, for each low coverage aDNA sample, we count the number of ancestral and derived alleles at each branch and use this information to map ancient lineages to their most likely place in the phylogeny. We apply this method to a large dataset of novel and publicly available data from ancient Eurasians and characterize patterns of Y chromosomal diversity across time as well as the impact of past migrations on the landscape of present-day paternal lineage distribution. "

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:13 am
All these morons will crash their heads against the truth, a hard stone as the "Geist" for Hegel:

Samuel Andrews said...
Tiny prediction: Yamnaya R1b Z2103+ has more CHG than the Steppe ancestors of Corded Ware & Bell Beaker.
One thing is for sure Bell Beaker, Corded Ware, Sintashta are not a two way MN farmer (currently published) & Yamnaya mix. They have more HG ancestry than that model can create. I'm thinking, possibly, their Steppe ancestors had more EHG or UkraineHg than Yamnaya R1b Z2103. Either that or their farmer ancestors had lots more WHG than any farmers sampled.
July 8, 2018 at 9:00 PM

Davidski said...
@Samuel Andrews
Good prediction, but you're about three years too late with it, because it was in the Haak et al. 2015 paper.
July 8, 2018 at 9:10 PM

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:16 am
Gioiello wrote:All these morons will crash their heads against the truth, a hard stone as the "Geist" for Hegel:

Samuel Andrews said...
Tiny prediction: Yamnaya R1b Z2103+ has more CHG than the Steppe ancestors of Corded Ware & Bell Beaker.
One thing is for sure Bell Beaker, Corded Ware, Sintashta are not a two way MN farmer (currently published) & Yamnaya mix. They have more HG ancestry than that model can create. I'm thinking, possibly, their Steppe ancestors had more EHG or UkraineHg than Yamnaya R1b Z2103. Either that or their farmer ancestors had lots more WHG than any farmers sampled.
July 8, 2018 at 9:00 PM

Davidski said...
@Samuel Andrews
Good prediction, but you're about three years too late with it, because it was in the Haak et al. 2015 paper.
July 8, 2018 at 9:10 PM


EHG is derived from WHG as shown in the Lazaridis ancient population graph. From the time of Kostenki14 about 37,000 years ago until the time of the Villabruna Cluster about 14,000 years ago, all Europeans seem to derive from a single ancestral population with no evidence of substantial genetic influx from elsewhere. Villabruna had the ANE component. The Yamnaya did not give western Europeans something they already had. The R1b YDNA question cannot be resolved by autosomal dna.

Let them publish the new YDNA samples from Samara that proves that P312 was formed 7,000 ybp. It will not be proof that P312 originated in Samara. They still have to show the YSNP trail from Samara to France.

Z2103 was found in Samara but Z2103 was not born in Samara due to fact that the most likely origin place of L23 was the Balkans.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:44 pm
dartraighe wrote:

Let them publish the new YDNA samples from Samara that proves that P312 was formed 7,000 ybp. It will not be proof that P312 originated in Samara. They still have to show the YSNP trail from Samara to France.



Morons added to morons:

Richard Stevens
23 giugno alle ore 14:34
I apologize if someone has already asked about this, but I am hoping Vladimir, Vadim, Roman or one of our other Russian guys can get to the bottom of this mystery. Back in January, a member of Molgen who identifies himself as Alexei Butin posted the following there:
Re: Новости археологии
« Ответ #1550 : 27 Январь 2018, 19:48:18 »
Здравствуйте. Сегодня прошла XIV самарская археологическая конференция. Были заслушены следующие доклады.
Хохлов А.А. Предварительные результаты антрополого-генетических исследований материалов Волго-Уралья периода неолита-ранней бронзы международной группой ученых.
В своем докладе Хохлов А.А. вводил в научный оборот пока неопубликованные данные нового энеолитического могильника Екатириновский мыс, который сочетает в себе, как мариупольские так и хвалынские черты, и относится к 4 четверти V тыс. до н.э. Все проанализированные образцы имели уралоидный антропологический тип, игрек хромосома всех образцов принадлежала к гаплогруппе R1b1a2 (R - P 312/ S 116), и гаплогруппе R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2. Мито к гаплогруппам U2, U4, U5. В Хвалынских могильниках (1 половина IV тыс. до н.э.) антропологический материал отличается бОльшим разнообразием. Кроме уралоидного субстрата фиксируется европеодный широколицый и южноевропеоидные варианты. К игрек гаплогруппам добавляются R1a1, O1a1, I2a2 к мито T2a1b, H2a1.
So, can someone find out from Dr. Khokhlov if that is true? Has R1b-P312 actually been found at Ekaterinovsky Cape in Khvalynsk skeletons from the fourth quarter of the 5th millennium BC (4250-4000 BC)? My wife, who is Russian, tried sending Khokhlov an email, but we haven't received an answer. This seems pretty important to me.
Thanks!
Giuseppe Belgieri e altri 12
Larry Walker If this is the case, "fourth quarter of the 5th millennium BC", for R-P312; perhaps YFull should consider using a different statistic for estimating "formed" age. The 90th or 95th percentile look promising.



Richard Stevens I hope someone in Russia with some knowledge of genetics can contact Dr. Khokhlov and confirm what Alexei Butin wrote.
Richard Stevens Sorry to keep bumping this up, but it seems really HUGELY important to me. I'd rather not try waiting two or three years for the paper to come out in English.
Larry Walker I agree. If correct, this is HUGE because it (1) it is about two thousand years older than any other sample that has been sequenced to the R-P312 level, (2) it pushes the formation of R-P312 back at least that much from estimates derived from DNA modeling, (3) it moves the possible birthplace of R-P312 much further east than most have believed, (4) R-P312 is the most common haplogroup at that level throughout Europe. IMO, corrections welcome.
Richard Stevens The source of the information, A.A. Khokhlov, is one of the scientists who worked on the Haak et al (2015) paper, Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe. In that paper he is listed as being affiliated with Volga State Academy of Social Sciences and Humanities, 443099 Russia, Samara. He co-authored this book along with David Anthony and some others. https://www.amazon.com/Bronze-Landscape ... 056Gestire



AMAZON.COM
A Bronze Age Landscape in the Russian Steppes: The Samara…
Larry Walker Richard Stevens. A better translation and supplemental info/analysis at https://indo-european.eu/tag/khvalin/Gestire



INDO-EUROPEAN.EU
Khvalin – Indo-European.eu
Richard Stevens Of course, I just posted the Russian here and did not provide a translation. No real new information there. I would still like to hear from Khokhlov.
Larry Walker Point taken. I read the Facebook provided translation which was not that great. I agree that we need to know what the actual SNP results were from the lab as it would be a big deal IF it was P312.


As far as I can tell, P312 has never been classified as “R1b1a2”, so I detect the aroma of a possible red herring.

R1b1a2 was M269 on ISOGG’s 2011-15 trees, V88 on the 2016-17 trees, and is V1636 on the 2018 tree.

R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2 only appears on the 2016-17 trees and represents S21728, a U106 subclade. This may indicate that they were using the 2016-17 trees in which case R1b1a2 would be V88.
Richard Stevens Butin wrote "R-P312/S116" in parentheses, which may indicate that he heard that said but didn't quite catch the long version beyond R1b1a2. Otherwise, I cannot imagine why a Russian R1a guy at a conference in Samara would write down both R-P312 and S116 in error. How would he conjure up such an error?
Richard Stevens Still no word?
Eugene Ivanov Not sure if it's going to help but try reaching this guy http://www.anatole-klyosov.com/ and ask him. He speaks englishGestire



ANATOLE-KLYOSOV.COM
Anatole Klyosov's Web Page
Richard Stevens Thanks. I had some contact with Dr. Klyosov some years ago, but it didn't really end well because we disagreed on some things. Just the same, it might be worth a try.
Richard Stevens Okay. I sent Dr. Klyosov an email. We'll see if he answers me.
Richard Stevens Hopefully his scientific curiosity will get the better of him.
Richard Stevens I got a response. He's not interested and just blew me off. Oh, well.
Richard Stevens Still no word about this, I guess. Are we just dismissing it? No curiosity to find out whether it's true or not?
Eugene Ivanov What email address did you use to contact Khokhlov? I found this email address khokhlov_aa@mail.ru you may want to try. Here's his paper about Khvalynsk from 2013 but no mentioning about haplogroups - http://www.ssc.smr.ru/.../izvestia/2013 ... 96_199.pdf
Richard Stevens I'm not sure what email address my wife used to try to contact him.
Richard Stevens Eugene Ivanov Thanks for your help. I just sent an email to the address you gave me. Since I am not fluent in Russian, part of the email is in English. Hopefully he will understand or be able to translate it and understand and will answer me.
Sergei Pavlovitch Sidoroff-Biarmskii I also wrote an email in Russian just now.
Richard Stevens Thanks! Please let us know if you get an answer
Gioiello Tognoni Caro Xxxxx, ti ringrazio dell'informazione naturalmente, ma sul fatto non dubitavo già da tempo. Comunque tieni presente che scrivi a un professore di Italiano (fra l'altro) e dovresti scrivere "un'altra". Io tradurrei Здесь нужно быть осторожным come "Bisogna essere più attenti ora" nel senso "a proposito di questo argomento". Ma la traduzione sarà dovuta alla moglie ebrea che sarà passata attraverso una intermediazione Yiddish.
Richard Stevens Gioiello Tognoni You really are an insufferable anti-Semite. My wife did not translate for me, and she doesn't know Yiddish.
Gioiello Tognoni Of course I am also ironic sometime, and English isn't my language as yours, but it seemed that someone translated that "You" should be careful, but it seems to me that Russian does mean "We should be careful" about this matter. If you think that I am an anti-Semite, tell all these Semites like Reich, Behar, Poznik etc etc why they are all anti-Italians...
Last edited by Gioiello on Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:13 pm
Gioiello
The reality is that P312 was not found in Samara.

People should accept that P312 was born in western Europe and expanded with the birth of the drinking culture aka Bell Beaker.

The earliest Bell Beakers were found in Iberia. The fact that this sample below was I2a2a is meaningless.

I2473 2916-2714 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: H3


M269 did not arrive from the Steppe to western Europe in the BA due to fact that he lived and died around 5,000 BC.

P312, born around the Bronze Age period, did not arrive from the Steppe due to the fact that it has not been found in any ancient dna samples in the Steppe, so it has not been proved yet.

The evidence to date shows that there was no R1b wave which entered western Europe in the BA and no R1b wave entered Western Europe in an earlier period due to the fact that L51 was only one man. The airheads cannot see or understand that R1b L51/L151 (5/12 YSNPs, ) was bottlenecked from 6,000>4,800 ybp until the birth of P312 and U106.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:10 am
R-L51 Y410 • E207 PF6535 PF6414 CTS10373 • PF6537 • FGC39 L51 • M412 • S167 • PF6536
R-L151 PF6416 PF6538 CTS7650 • PF6544 • S1164 • FGC44 Y101 • FGC796 • Z8159 PF5856 YSC0001249 • CTS10353 • S1175 L11 • S127 • PF6539 L151 • PF6542 L52 • PF6541 • A19949 P311 • S128 • PF6545 YSC0000191 • PF6543 • S1159 P310 • S129 • PF6546


This is the L51/L151 bottleneck that is the single line of descent for all P312,U106 and S1200 ancient and modern west European descendants today.


Y410 is a recurrent YSNP in the L51 line. There are three other recurrent YSNPs at the L51 level that Yfull does not use in their Y tree analysis- Y109,Y1977 and M11829.


Some YSNPs are recurrent and valuable also. I have two of them in my specific Y line and one of them is now used as a subclade branch name by FTDNA. I know that the two recurrent YSNPs are of good quality because a complete stranger who shares 20 other of my YSNPs from my Big Y test has these two YSNPs. So it is not coincidence that he has the same recurrent YSNPs.
Last edited by dartraighe on Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:16 pm
Canada Farm, Sixpenny Handley, Dorset, England -

1. I5379/F1: 2470–2290 calBCE; Y-DNA: R1b-L21; mtDNA: HV0+195.

Burial/Grave Goods: "F1 included the remains of a 25-30-year-old male on his left side facing east. The remains had probably been interred inside a wooden coffin, and were accompanied by a boar’s tusk, an antler pendant or toggle, a flint flake and a Middle Rhine/Wessex style Beaker. The skeleton was complete and mostly articulated; however the mandible had been removed and placed in the northwest corner of the coffin. The proximal articular ends of both humeri were slightly out of anatomical articulation. Signs of carnivore gnawing on some of the bones confirmed that there must have been a delay between this individual’s death and burial. Two radiocarbon dates obtained from this skeleton (2620-2470 calBCE (2-sigma) and 2470-2290 calBCE (2-sigma)) were statistically inconsistent with one another. It has yet to be resolved which of these dates is likely to be most accurate, although both dates place the death of the individual at the beginning of the Beaker period in Britain. Both dates are anomalously early when compared to the typology of the accompanying Beaker pot, suggesting that the period between death and burial was likely to have been a century or more. The correct anatomical articulation of the skeleton inferred the persistence of substantial soft tissue. This observation, as well as results from the histological analysis of the femur from this skeleton, were consistent with this individual having been mummified previously."

(Olalde et al Supplementary Info, page 114; Spreadsheet, Supplementary Tables 2 and 4).


This is the earliest L21 in all of Europe. The Bell Beaker pot seems to have been inserted into the burial 100 years after he died. If the first date is right then L21 is older than 4,600 ybp.


I think that this ancient L21 dna sample shows that Yfull's TMRCA for L21 is wrong. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L21/

And L21 was not born in the Steppe.

If the CWC and BB came from the Steppe why did they have different burial rites? If they belonged to the same religious group or had the same culture as ancestors one would think that they would be buried in the same way but they were not.

The Bell Beaker males were buried in a fetal position on the left side facing east and the CWC males were buried in a fetal position on the right side facing south so how would they belong to the same religion?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:14 pm
Gioiello
We are still waiting on the evidence of the massive R1b P312 and U106 migration from the Steppe around 4,500 ybp. We have yet to see the evidence of the earliest L21,U152,DF27,Z156, Z18 and L48 in the Steppe 4,500 ybp or even before that era. The earliest Bell Beaker remains with R1b were found in Germany so far. The earliest Bell Beaker pots were found in Iberia. No Bell Beaker pots were found in the Steppe.


The earliest L21 remains was found in Britain and the earliest U152 and DF27 remains were found in Germany. There is no L51 YDNA trail from Samara to Germany. The anti-Iberian origin for any branch of R1b is the main focus of some posters.

There is no evidence to show that L51 was born in Iberia and no evidence to show that L51 was born in the Steppe. I cannot see the scientists ever finding the bones of Mr L51. They have found the earliest bones of his descendants in Germany, western Europe.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:31 pm
@ Gioiello
Myślę ze to jest Pana zwycięstwo:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/articl ... 641#sec013
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