Quiles not Aquiles

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:17 am
If you read the self-introduced biography of Carlos Quiles (beyond the impressive amount of studies) you have an idea of what is said in Italian a "tuttologo". I read in the past some writings of his about the genetics of populations and had the idea that he repeated what vox populi said, thus no original idea. But this last blog of his is more explicit: he is an up-to-date kurganist (not from Yamnaya but from Repin), and above all he makes his agenda clear:
"We are living right now an exemplary ego-, (ethno-)nationalism-, and/or supremacy-deflating moment, for some individuals of eastern and northern European descent who believed that R1a or ‘steppe ancestry proportions’ meant something special. The same can be said about those who had interiorized some social or ethnolinguistic meaning for the origin of R1b in western Europe, N1c in north-eastern Europe, as well as Greeks, Iranians, Armenians, or Mediterranean peoples in general of ‘Near Eastern’ ancestry or haplogroups, or peoples of Near Eastern origin and/or language.
These people had linked their haplogroups or ancestry with some fantasy continuity of ‘their’ ancestral populations to ‘their’ territories or languages (or both), and all are being proven wrong.
Apart from teaching such people a lesson about what simplistic views are useful for – whether it is based on ABO or RH group, white skin, blond hair, blue eyes, lactase persistence, or on the own ancestry or Y-DNA haplogroup -, it teaches the rest of us what can happen in the near future among western Europeans. Because, until recently, most western Europeans were comfortably settled thinking that our ancestors were some remnant population from an older, Palaeolithic or Mesolithic population, who acquired Indo-European languages by way of cultural diffusion in different periods, including only minor migrations.
Judging by what we can see now among some individuals of Northern and Eastern European descent, the only thing that can worsen the air of superiority among western Europeans is when they realize (within a few years, when all these stupid battles to control the narrative fade) that not only are they the cultural ‘heirs’ of the Graeco-Roman tradition that began with the Roman Empire, but that most of them are the direct patrilineal descendants of Khvalynsk, Yamna, Bell Beaker, and European Bronze Age peoples, and thus direct descendants of Middle PIE, Late PIE, and NWIE speakers".
And that was clear also in his self-introduced apology: "I created a project to revitalize our western Iberian regional languages (Galician-Portuguese and Asturian-Leonese dialects), and I came to the idea of reviving Indo-European in Easter 2004, when reading about the history of Extremadura, seeing inscriptions in Lusitanian, an Indo-European Celtic-like dialect that was spoken in zones of modern southwestern Spain and central Portugal, just before the Roman invasion. It was so similar to Latin, that I thought Proto-Indo-European had to be just as similar…"
As the same Maju and other people of Iberia, he didn't digest "Roman invasion" and to speak a language which is nothing else than Latin. Thus don't expect that he considers my theory of an Italian Refugium of hg. R1b1 (and much other) and that the same Indo-European had much to do with places westernmost the steppes. Nothing to say if he feels an Iberian (for ever grateful to Martialis beyond true Romans like Seneca, Lucanus, Traianus, Hadrianus etc.), but perhaps he feels more a crypto-something or thinks to Cordoba lejana y sola before reaching Fuentevaqueros.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:14 am
Gioiello wrote:If you read the self-introduced biography of Carlos Quiles (beyond the impressive amount of studies) you have an idea of what is said in Italian a "tuttologo". I read in the past some writings of his about the genetics of populations and had the idea that he repeated what vox populi said, thus no original idea. But this last blog of his is more explicit: he is an up-to-date kurganist (not from Yamnaya but from Repin), and above all he makes his agenda clear:
"We are living right now an exemplary ego-, (ethno-)nationalism-, and/or supremacy-deflating moment, for some individuals of eastern and northern European descent who believed that R1a or ‘steppe ancestry proportions’ meant something special. The same can be said about those who had interiorized some social or ethnolinguistic meaning for the origin of R1b in western Europe, N1c in north-eastern Europe, as well as Greeks, Iranians, Armenians, or Mediterranean peoples in general of ‘Near Eastern’ ancestry or haplogroups, or peoples of Near Eastern origin and/or language.
These people had linked their haplogroups or ancestry with some fantasy continuity of ‘their’ ancestral populations to ‘their’ territories or languages (or both), and all are being proven wrong.
Apart from teaching such people a lesson about what simplistic views are useful for – whether it is based on ABO or RH group, white skin, blond hair, blue eyes, lactase persistence, or on the own ancestry or Y-DNA haplogroup -, it teaches the rest of us what can happen in the near future among western Europeans. Because, until recently, most western Europeans were comfortably settled thinking that our ancestors were some remnant population from an older, Palaeolithic or Mesolithic population, who acquired Indo-European languages by way of cultural diffusion in different periods, including only minor migrations.
Judging by what we can see now among some individuals of Northern and Eastern European descent, the only thing that can worsen the air of superiority among western Europeans is when they realize (within a few years, when all these stupid battles to control the narrative fade) that not only are they the cultural ‘heirs’ of the Graeco-Roman tradition that began with the Roman Empire, but that most of them are the direct patrilineal descendants of Khvalynsk, Yamna, Bell Beaker, and European Bronze Age peoples, and thus direct descendants of Middle PIE, Late PIE, and NWIE speakers".
And that was clear also in his self-introduced apology: "I created a project to revitalize our western Iberian regional languages (Galician-Portuguese and Asturian-Leonese dialects), and I came to the idea of reviving Indo-European in Easter 2004, when reading about the history of Extremadura, seeing inscriptions in Lusitanian, an Indo-European Celtic-like dialect that was spoken in zones of modern southwestern Spain and central Portugal, just before the Roman invasion. It was so similar to Latin, that I thought Proto-Indo-European had to be just as similar…"
As the same Maju and other people of Iberia, he didn't digest "Roman invasion" and to speak a language which is nothing else than Latin. Thus don't expect that he considers my theory of an Italian Refugium of hg. R1b1 (and much other) and that the same Indo-European had much to do with places westernmost the steppes. Nothing to say if he feels an Iberian (for ever grateful to Martialis beyond true Romans like Seneca, Lucanus, Traianus, Hadrianus etc.), but perhaps he feels more a crypto-something or thinks to Cordoba lejana y sola before reaching Fuentevaqueros.


Modern western Europeans are the direct descendants of the people who lived in northern Europe before the Ice Age. Carlos has a problem with that!!!!

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:37 am
dartraighe wrote:Modern western Europeans are the direct descendants of the people who lived in northern Europe before the Ice Age. Carlos has a problem with that!!!!


During the Last Glacial Maximum very likely weren't in Northern Europe, but more likely in Southern Refugia. R1* probably came from the Siberian corridor and around 14000 ya (Villabruna) and 12000 ya (Les Iboussiéres) they were around Southerna Alps. After the Younger Dryas they expanded also Northward, and partial R-L11 were in Southern Germany (but I am waiting for the test or Amerighi from Siena: perhaps of German origin, but it isn't said). R1b-L51-PF7589 seems overwhelming in Italy (two last samples to-day: a Brazilian of Venetian descent who lives in Australia and a Grassi tested from Marco Grassi), and my avatar says from ten years where it is to-day. Let's wait that Dritte Reich publishes his data from Italy of 6000 and 5000 years ago (but why not from 12000 to 6000, i.e. Balzi Rossi, Arene Candide?) and we'll speak again with more data...

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:15 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:Modern western Europeans are the direct descendants of the people who lived in northern Europe before the Ice Age. Carlos has a problem with that!!!!


During the Last Glacial Maximum very likely weren't in Northern Europe, but more likely in Southern Refugia. R1* probably came from the Siberian corridor and around 14000 ya (Villabruna) and 12000 ya (Les Iboussiéres) they were around Southerna Alps. After the Younger Dryas they expanded also Northward, and partial R-L11 were in Southern Germany (but I am waiting for the test or Amerighi from Siena: perhaps of German origin, but it isn't said). R1b-L51-PF7589 seems overwhelming in Italy (two last samples to-day: a Brazilian of Venetian descent who lives in Australia and a Grassi tested from Marco Grassi), and my avatar says from ten years where it is to-day. Let's wait that Dritte Reich publishes his data from Italy of 6000 and 5000 years ago (but why not from 12000 to 6000, i.e. Balzi Rossi, Arene Candide?) and we'll speak again with more data...


The Villabruna clan ( Bichon, Loschbour , Les Iboussiéres etc.) were descended from the pre-Ice Age people of northern Europe and we are descended from Villabruna clan. The Khvalynsk, Yamna etc. are also descended from the Villabruna clan.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:19 am
Gioiello wrote:If you read the self-introduced biography of Carlos Quiles (beyond the impressive amount of studies) you have an idea of what is said in Italian a "tuttologo". I read in the past some writings of his about the genetics of populations and had the idea that he repeated what vox populi said, thus no original idea. But this last blog of his is more explicit: he is an up-to-date kurganist (not from Yamnaya but from Repin), and above all he makes his agenda clear:
"We are living right now an exemplary ego-, (ethno-)nationalism-, and/or supremacy-deflating moment, for some individuals of eastern and northern European descent who believed that R1a or ‘steppe ancestry proportions’ meant something special. The same can be said about those who had interiorized some social or ethnolinguistic meaning for the origin of R1b in western Europe, N1c in north-eastern Europe, as well as Greeks, Iranians, Armenians, or Mediterranean peoples in general of ‘Near Eastern’ ancestry or haplogroups, or peoples of Near Eastern origin and/or language.
These people had linked their haplogroups or ancestry with some fantasy continuity of ‘their’ ancestral populations to ‘their’ territories or languages (or both), and all are being proven wrong.
Apart from teaching such people a lesson about what simplistic views are useful for – whether it is based on ABO or RH group, white skin, blond hair, blue eyes, lactase persistence, or on the own ancestry or Y-DNA haplogroup -, it teaches the rest of us what can happen in the near future among western Europeans. Because, until recently, most western Europeans were comfortably settled thinking that our ancestors were some remnant population from an older, Palaeolithic or Mesolithic population, who acquired Indo-European languages by way of cultural diffusion in different periods, including only minor migrations.
Judging by what we can see now among some individuals of Northern and Eastern European descent, the only thing that can worsen the air of superiority among western Europeans is when they realize (within a few years, when all these stupid battles to control the narrative fade) that not only are they the cultural ‘heirs’ of the Graeco-Roman tradition that began with the Roman Empire, but that most of them are the direct patrilineal descendants of Khvalynsk, Yamna, Bell Beaker, and European Bronze Age peoples, and thus direct descendants of Middle PIE, Late PIE, and NWIE speakers".
And that was clear also in his self-introduced apology: "I created a project to revitalize our western Iberian regional languages (Galician-Portuguese and Asturian-Leonese dialects), and I came to the idea of reviving Indo-European in Easter 2004, when reading about the history of Extremadura, seeing inscriptions in Lusitanian, an Indo-European Celtic-like dialect that was spoken in zones of modern southwestern Spain and central Portugal, just before the Roman invasion. It was so similar to Latin, that I thought Proto-Indo-European had to be just as similar…"
As the same Maju and other people of Iberia, he didn't digest "Roman invasion" and to speak a language which is nothing else than Latin. Thus don't expect that he considers my theory of an Italian Refugium of hg. R1b1 (and much other) and that the same Indo-European had much to do with places westernmost the steppes. Nothing to say if he feels an Iberian (for ever grateful to Martialis beyond true Romans like Seneca, Lucanus, Traianus, Hadrianus etc.), but perhaps he feels more a crypto-something or thinks to Cordoba lejana y sola before reaching Fuentevaqueros.


Gioiello
Carlos knows nothing about YDNA or R1b-L51 when he continually writes about the L51 expansion. There was no L51 expansion because L51 was bottlenecked until the birth of P312. P312 expanded in western Europe between 4,500 and 4,200 ybp in the form of L21 and U152. How many times will I have to say it before some researchers finally get the message?!!!

L51>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>P312/U106/S1200 was bottlenecked for 17 YSNPs and it is so easy to see and understand. A single line of decent for all western European branches of P312/U106 and S1200. And furthermore, P312 must have taken at least 10 generations or more in western Europe to show up in all the ancient dna sites that have been sampled so far.

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