R-M269* again


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Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:58 am
I wrote a lot in the past about a sample of R-M269* found among Arab people and in a one person from Albania, and I proposed that the origin of these Arabs were due to a person from Balkans, perhaps a Janissary. Now we know that they are R-M269-PF7562-PF7563-Z29756-PF7566 like many people in Sardinia and also my relative Fabrizio Federighi from Tuscany. The separation between Sardinians-Italians and Balkanians happened 4000 years ago as to YFull, whereas the MRCA of Balkans and Arabs is 1450 years ago.

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MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:35 pm
Gioiello wrote:I wrote a lot in the past about a sample of R-M269* found among Arab people and in a one person from Albania, and I proposed that the origin of these Arabs were due to a person from Balkans, perhaps a Janissary. Now we know that they are R-M269-PF7562-PF7563-Z29756-PF7566 like many people in Sardinia and also my relative Fabrizio Federighi from Tuscany. The separation between Sardinians-Italians and Balkanians happened 4000 years ago as to YFull, whereas the MRCA of Balkans and Arabs is 1450 years ago.




https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7562/ This looks like a rare branch of M269.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7563/ Yfull shows the ancestor branch formed 5,200 ybp and the TMRCA should be the same. There is only one SNP.

Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:13 pm
dartraighe wrote:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7562/ This looks like a rare branch of M269.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7563/ Yfull shows the ancestor branch formed 5,200 ybp and the TMRCA should be the same. There is only one SNP.


R-PF7562* is a rare subclade (actually they are two so far) diffused above all around the Caucasus, but the main subclade (PF7563 and downstream) is diffused above all in Italy and Western Europe. It is the same as for other subclades (M73, Z2110, etc.), whereas from L11 they are above all in Western Europe.
Of course this demonstrates that Western European subclades don’t derive from the eastern ones: R-M73* cannot derive from R-M73-M478, the subclade of eastern Europe and Asia and so on.
Don’t forget that Italy for instance is largely undertested, and for aDNA pretty not tested, but I have many samples, the oldest, in each subclade. Nothing is said about what I demonstrated about R-L389, the origin of all: it is born in Italy and Western Europe, and around the Caucasus only a subclade derived from a Western one.

Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:51 pm
Gioiello Tognoni Nick Sylaj, I thank you for these data. I was speaking here about this cluster:
Bojaxhi Tirane, Shqiperi R1b-M269>PF7563>Z29764>PF7566>"Koman Cluster"
Gashi Gashi Qabiq, Kline, Kosove R1b-M269>PF7563>Z29764>PF7566>"Koman Cluster"
Kola Gjinaj Buzhale, Koman, Shqiperi R1b-M269>PF7563>Z29764>PF7566>"Koman Cluster"

which separated as to YFull 4000 years ago from the Sardinian/Italian cluster, to which belongs beyond many samples tested from Francalacci 2013/21015 also my relative Fabrizio Federighi from Tuscany, tested only with Geno 2.0. Thus from this samples we don’t know if R-M269 is older in Italy or in the Balkans, but about your R-L23-CTS9219 “Balkan cluster” (the discovery and the name is mine), whose you have so many samples, it seems that it is recent in the Balkans and much older in Italy and Western Europe, and about that I am writing form at least ten years.
Gioiello Tognoni Nick Sylaj, I’d be glad to look at the STRs of these supposed R-L51 if you have them:
Cenaj (Danaj) Sevaster, Laberi, Shqiperi R1b-M269>L51>Paspecifikuar
Cukaj Mallakaster, Shqieri R1b-M269>L51>Paspecifikuar
Danaj Progonat, Laberi, Shqiperi R1b-M269>L51>Paspecifikuar
Kurti Plan i Bardhe, Mat, Shqiperi R1b-M269>L51>Paspecifikuar
Flor Veseli Gioiello Tognoni, two of them have tested Y37. Here they are:

13 24 14-15 10 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 30 14-15-17-17 10 11 19-23 16 14 16 18 36-37 12 12

13 26 14 10 11-14 12 12 13 13 13 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 20 31 15-15-17-18 11 11 19-23 14 14 19 17 37-40 12 13
Gioiello Tognoni Flor Veseli, thus they are R1a and not R1b. Very strange. They don't seem R1a at all.
Flor Veseli Gioiello Tognoni, are you sure? They should definitely R1b
Gioiello Tognoni It is a little strange that an R-L51-PF7589 is actually an Italian:
234035 Fregola Italy R-M269 13 24 14 11 11-13 13 12 12 13 14 29 18 9-10 11 11 25 16 19 29 15-15-17-18 10 11 19-23 16 16 19 16 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 12 11 12 23-23 18 10 12 12 16 8 12 23 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 11

even though also this sample may be R-L51-PF7589 for having DYS426=13:
786733 LULGJURAJ Lek Zeka Lulgjuraj Montenegro R-M269 13 24 14 11 11-11 13 12 12 14 13 30 15 8-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-17 12 11 19-23 15 15 18 17 36-37 12 12
but DYS385=11-11 and DYS459a=8 are in favour of an R-L23-CTS9219 “Balkan cluster” with the rare mutation in DYS426=13<12.
Nick Sylaj I am adding Flor Veseli as he is the admin and I would need permission before sharing those str markers.
Flor Veseli Gioiello Tognoni, Lulgjuraj is confirmed Y33200+ which is at the level of BY611>Z2705, or as per your discovery R-CTS9219>"Balkan Cluster"
Gioiello Tognoni Flor Veseli, I thank you very much. From that you may understand why I have been banned from all the blogs, except those of our Russian friends.
Gioiello Tognoni Flor Veseli, what a stupid I was. Of course Y37 not the SNP but the first 37 markers. Everything is clear now. They are clearly R1b. Interesting to understand which subclade.

Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:08 pm
Flor Veseli, it is very likely that these samples are R-P310-A8045.

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