Scacco matto in tre mosse


Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:12 am
1
• R-FGC24408 FGC24408 formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp
o id:YF15134ITA [IT-SA]new
o id:YF08721KWT [KW-AH]
o id:YF02873ITA [IT-FI]


At last Mr Cinque sent his Big Y to YFull. We belong to an Italian subclade of R-FGC24408, whereas YF08721 from Kuwait and a person from Skandinavia separated just after the SNP FGC24408. We have 19 SNPs in common of my 67 recognized from YFull (from more than 90 to 67!, but 32 continue not being tested from Big Y), and closer subclades are upstream under the SNP SK2097. Hope that he enters the R-M343 (xP310 xU106) group.

2
It seems that these SNPs in common with Cinque are already subctracted from my private ones.

3

Hi YFull team, from your STRs comparing it is clear that my subclade (FGC24408) and the CTS699 subclade have many STRs mutations in common. Even though it seems that my subclade is Italian only in this late subclade (mine), which is recent having at least 18 SNPs in common (as to your analysis) plus other 3 for the Italian ones, whereas the oldest subclade is in Kuwait and Skandinavia having in common only the oldest SNP FGC24408, but also CTS699, even though in a Jewish cluster, seems centred above all in Italy, don't you think that it is unreliable that these two subclades came to Italy, both, from elsewehere, but that this demonstrates my theory, that not only it is the oldest one survived with R-L23-L51-PF7589, both centred in Italy and above all in Tuscany?

Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:25 am
Unfortunately these data from YFull aren’t reliable, because the modal may not be determined from a program but hands by hands. Many of these supposed mutations are private mutations of Nochev (YF01886) put by chance at the top of the subclade. I’ll study all the matter again.
Last edited by Gioiello on Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:11 am
Gioiello wrote:1
• R-FGC24408 FGC24408 formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp
o id:YF15134ITA [IT-SA]new
o id:YF08721KWT [KW-AH]
o id:YF02873ITA [IT-FI]


At last Mr Cinque sent his Big Y to YFull. We belong to an Italian subclade of R-FGC24408, whereas YF08721 from Kuwait and a person from Skandinavia separated just after the SNP FGC24408. We have 19 SNPs in common of my 67 recognized from YFull (from more than 90 to 67!, but 32 continue not being tested from Big Y), and closer subclades are upstream under the SNP SK2097. Hope that he enters the R-M343 (xP310 xU106) group.

2
It seems that these SNPs in common with Cinque are already subctracted from my private ones.

3

Hi YFull team, from your STRs comparing it is clear that my subclade (FGC24408) and the CTS699 subclade have many STRs mutations in common. Even though it seems that my subclade is Italian only in this late subclade (mine), which is recent having at least 18 SNPs in common (as to your analysis) plus other 3 for the Italian ones, whereas the oldest subclade is in Kuwait and Skandinavia having in common only the oldest SNP FGC24408, but also CTS699, even though in a Jewish cluster, seems centred above all in Italy, don't you think that it is unreliable that these two subclades came to Italy, both, from elsewehere, but that this demonstrates my theory, that not only it is the oldest one survived with R-L23-L51-PF7589, both centred in Italy and above all in Tuscany?


Gioiello
Your branch probably originated in Italy and Kuwait is an Italian migrant.

Yfull has a problem with TMRCAs because testers are getting different numbers of YSNPs from their Big Y results due to poor samples being used. Yfull then compares the results of brother branches and determines the dates. My terminal branch should be at least 4,100 instead of 3,100. Big Y testers should be made send in a new sample always. It is so important to get a good result after paying big money for it. One of my matches has only 342 YSTRs from his Big Y test BAM file at Yfull.


Here is my YSTR info at Yfull.

STRs (all):587

Reliable alleles:
529 (90.12%)

Uncertain alleles:
7 (1.19%)

N/A:
51 (8.69%)

Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:05 am
But the question I raised above isn't due to Big Y results but to the fact that they use a program, whereas "modal" can be seen only from an expert eye. I am doing this work and I'll publish my thought later.

Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:24 am
DYR44 is clearly modal at 12. My 13 is a mutation from 12, maintained in R-CTS699. Nochev with 15 is very likely a multistep mutation. The question to answer is why the subclade CTS7556 has 15 and not only this time seems close to Nochev, whereas its subclade Y5592 has the modal 12 again. I think that by chance what is thought CTS7556 is actually its subclade Y20344 or Y20345.

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:26 pm
Gioiello wrote:DYR44 is clearly modal at 12. My 13 is a mutation from 12, maintained in R-CTS699. Nochev with 15 is very likely a multistep mutation. The question to answer is why the subclade CTS7556 has 15 and not only this time seems close to Nochev, whereas its subclade Y5592 has the modal 12 again. I think that by chance what is thought CTS7556 is actually its subclade Y20344 or Y20345.


The YSTR variants page at Yfull gives you the ancestral and derived values for all of your YSTRs. For example 25 is ancestral for DYS714 but YSTRs flip flop in values between branches. I always use the M269 modal as a guide to main ancestral markers. All testers need to have the exact same markers tested to be of any value. YSNPs are more reliable and easy to work with.

Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:40 pm
dartraighe wrote:The YSTR variants page at Yfull gives you the ancestral and derived values for all of your YSTRs. For example 25 is ancestral for DYS714 but YSTRs flip flop in values between branches. I always use the M269 modal as a guide to main ancestral markers. All testers need to have the exact same markers tested to be of any value. YSNPs are more reliable and easy to work with.


Of course SNPs are more important, but we may learn so much also from STRs, above all the slow mutating ones. Don't forget that I did all my theories ten years ago only upon the STRs, when the SNPs weren't many as now.

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:37 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:The YSTR variants page at Yfull gives you the ancestral and derived values for all of your YSTRs. For example 25 is ancestral for DYS714 but YSTRs flip flop in values between branches. I always use the M269 modal as a guide to main ancestral markers. All testers need to have the exact same markers tested to be of any value. YSNPs are more reliable and easy to work with.


Of course SNPs are more important, but we may learn so much also from STRs, above all the slow mutating ones. Don't forget that I did all my theories ten years ago only upon the STRs, when the SNPs weren't many as now.



It would be better for all of us if the 800,000 YDNA testers at FTDNA had a YSNP test instead of a YSTR test. If they all were tested to 111 YSTR markers it would not make one bit of difference to the majority of customers. FTDNA's thresholds are too low for branch matches. One of my Big Y matches is a GD of 13 @ 67 and 20 @111. I would never have found him through YSTR testing. Thanks to the Big Y tests I have a better understanding now about my Y line.

Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:54 pm
dartraighe wrote:It would be better for all of us if the 800,000 YDNA testers at FTDNA had a YSNP test instead of a YSTR test. If they all were tested to 111 YSTR markers it would not make one bit of difference to the majority of customers. FTDNA's thresholds are too low for branch matches. One of my Big Y matches is a GD of 13 @ 67 and 20 @111. I would never have found him through YSTR testing. Thanks to the Big Y tests I have a better understanding now about my Y line.


Of course you are right, but in my haplogroup DYS525 is a so slow mutating marker, that the oldest subclades have the modal 10, but who has 9 is in my subclade SK2097.

Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:44 am
Gioiello wrote:DYR44 is clearly modal at 12. My 13 is a mutation from 12, maintained in R-CTS699. Nochev with 15 is very likely a multistep mutation. The question to answer is why the subclade CTS7556 has 15 and not only this time seems close to Nochev, whereas its subclade Y5592 has the modal 12 again. I think that by chance what is thought CTS7556 is actually its subclade Y20344 or Y20345.


After my analysis, out of the 20 STRs with a mutation in common between my subclade (FGC24408) and the subclade CTS699 perhaps only 4 may be reliable: DYR111=11<12, Y-GATA-A10=14<13, DYS679=14<12, DYS684=59<58, perhaps too few for demonstrating a link of these 2 subclades after the separation from Z2110*, but only a wider comparing could say more.
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