R-L52 + L151 =13 and not 12


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:02 am
Paolo Amerighi (YF13201) had some problem with the FTDNA tree, that recognized him the SNP PF6540/YSC0000082) that you don’t consider at the R-L52 level. It is
ChrY position (Hg19): 9084870 (+strand) ◄
ChrY position (Hg38): 9247261 (+strand)

PF6540 / YSC0000082 G to T
YSC0000082 / PF6540 T to G
As it is G in all the R1b haplogroup and is T from R-L52, and as Paolo Amerighi is clearly T, I think that perhaps is right the FTDNA tree in considering 13 SNPs at the R-L52+L151 level and not your 12:
Sample ID HG 9084870

REFSEQ T

YF13201 R-L52* T

Thus YF13201 would be 5 positive SNPs 3 negative and 5 no calls
Last edited by Gioiello on Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:36 am
Gioiello wrote:Paolo Amerighi (YF13201) had some problem with the FTDNA tree, that recognized him the SNP PF6540/YSC0000083) that you don’t consider at the R-L52 level. It is
ChrY position (Hg19): 9084870 (+strand) ◄
ChrY position (Hg38): 9247261 (+strand)

PF6540 / YSC0000082 G to T
YSC0000082 / PF6540 T to G
As it is G in all the R1b haplogroup and is T from R-L52, and as Paolo Amerighi is clearly T, I think that perhaps is right the FTDNA tree in considering 13 SNPs at the R-L52+L151 level and not your 12:
Sample ID HG 9084870

REFSEQ T

YF13201 R-L52* T

Thus YF13201 would be 5 positive SNPs 3 negative and 5 no calls



I am negative for this recurrent SNP. The most important point is that this L52* tester is negative for these three SNPs, L11 ,PF6543, L151 and he is of western European origin. His YDNA helped to break down the 17 YSNPs at the L51 level and his branch diverged from the most common western European branch before the birth of P312/U106/S1200. Another little bit of proof that L11 was not of Steppe origin.

Posts: 2410
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YDNA:
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:11 pm
dartraighe wrote:
I am negative for this recurrent SNP. The most important point is that this L52* tester is negative for these three SNPs, L11 ,PF6543, L151 and he is of western European origin. His YDNA helped to break down the 17 YSNPs at the L51 level and his branch diverged from the most common western European branch before the birth of P312/U106/S1200. Another little bit of proof that L11 was not of Steppe origin.


What do you mean that you are negative? Are you G or T? Of course you should be T if the mutation T<G happened at the R-L52 level. The SNP is recurrent but not unstable, and it is also a trasversion and not a transition. All the hgs I may see are G, and also R1b before R-L52. And the other U106? Are all G? If they are all T and only you are G, we should think to a private mutation of your line.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:29 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:
I am negative for this recurrent SNP. The most important point is that this L52* tester is negative for these three SNPs, L11 ,PF6543, L151 and he is of western European origin. His YDNA helped to break down the 17 YSNPs at the L51 level and his branch diverged from the most common western European branch before the birth of P312/U106/S1200. Another little bit of proof that L11 was not of Steppe origin.


What do you mean that you are negative? Are you G or T? Of course you should be T if the mutation T<G happened at the R-L52 level. The SNP is recurrent but not unstable, and it is also a trasversion and not a transition. All the hgs I may see are G, and also R1b before R-L52. And the other U106? Are all G? If they are all T and only you are G, we should think to a private mutation of your line.



I have ref.T sample T. which shows that I am negative.


The scientists are testing a lot more samples in Anatolia. I think that they are looking for R1b. R1b did not arrive in western Europe with the first farmers from Anatolia between 6,000 and 8,000 years ago. It is possible that the first R1b arrived in Anatolia after 6,000 years due to the fact that L23 originated 6,400 ybp. I sent you the gedmatch Iran ancient samples showing that they were closest to the Armenian population which suggests a migration from there to Iran between 5 -6,000 ybp and possibly Z2103 that was found in Iran. It is important because the Yamnaya had 40% CHG which they got from the Caucasus probably 5,000 ybp or earlier. It is not acceptable to some researchers because they do not want Z2103 to originate in any place other than Samara. It does not fit with the "Tribal Elders" also and it is controversial like some ancient dna surprises.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:45 am
dartraighe wrote:I have ref.T sample T. which shows that I am negative.


In these case the notion of negative and positive is relative, for that I asked which is your result, and you confirm all what I said about Amerighi and these 13th SNPs at the L52+L151 level. The reference is T because the reference sample is an R-U152-L20, and within our haplogroup which is G for a previous mutation you are "positive" because your line mutated from G to T.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:24 am
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:I have ref.T sample T. which shows that I am negative.


In these case the notion of negative and positive is relative, for that I asked which is your result, and you confirm all what I said about Amerighi and these 13th SNPs at the L52+L151 level. The reference is T because the reference sample is an R-U152-L20, and within our haplogroup which is G for a previous mutation you are "positive" because your line mutated from G to T.



Gioiello
I do not see the relevance of this recurrent SNP at all to the whole R1b story or to the origin place of L51 or Z2103. It is not in the Yfull tree. There are hundreds of recurrent SNPs within R1b that are not in the tree. I have lots of unique YSNPs that define my branch and that is relevant to my YDNA line.

Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:51 am
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
I do not see the relevance of this recurrent SNP at all to the whole R1b story or to the origin place of L51 or Z2103. It is not in the Yfull tree. There are hundreds of recurrent SNPs within R1b that are not in the tree. I have lots of unique YSNPs that define my branch and that is relevant to my YDNA line.


But the SNP is good and I don't understand why YFull doesn't use it. Within the R1b haplogroup is important and not aequivocal. For Amerighi it is important to know how many SNPs he gets positive and how many negative, just because he has 5 no call from his bad Big Y, in fact YFull doesn't put the age of L52 just for that, anyway L151 is 4800 years old (as to YFull), thus the Amerighi line separated before, and that is important just for undestanding the origin of hg R1b, he is of German or of Tuscan origin as to his Y.

Posts: 2233
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:15 am
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
I do not see the relevance of this recurrent SNP at all to the whole R1b story or to the origin place of L51 or Z2103. It is not in the Yfull tree. There are hundreds of recurrent SNPs within R1b that are not in the tree. I have lots of unique YSNPs that define my branch and that is relevant to my YDNA line.


But the SNP is good and I don't understand why YFull doesn't use it. Within the R1b haplogroup is important and not aequivocal. For Amerighi it is important to know how many SNPs he gets positive and how many negative, just because he has 5 no call from his bad Big Y, in fact YFull doesn't put the age of L52 just for that, anyway L151 is 4800 years old (as to YFull), thus the Amerighi line separated before, and that is important just for undestanding the origin of hg R1b, he is of German or of Tuscan origin as to his Y.


No calls are not important in the upper levels of the tree because we know if a tester has the downstream markers that he is also positive for those no call YSNPs. And the Big Y test is not a bad test as you write. It is not as comprehenisve a test as the FGC elite or perhaps the Dante labs tests. I believe the scientists at FTDNA picked the Y chromosome regions for the Big Y test that they perceived to be the most productive that they could do for the most reasonable price. And, the Big Y test is helping a lot of groups to define their branches. They have the largest YDNA database and we who are interested in folllowing our ancient Y lines need FTDNA. I could buy an FGC elite test or any other company's NGS test but how would that help me to find matches? All I would be doing is learning about my own ydna. I don't need more tests or YSNPs, I need more matches. I have only two at present and that is not going to help me to achieve my goal.

FTDNA could help more by selling YSNP pack tests instead of YSTR tests. They are not doing enough to help testers find matches. All of the 800,000 testers in the FTDNA database should be engcouraged to take YSNP tests. It is possible to have an SNP match within the past 800 years who is not a match at 67 markers within the FTDNA 7 marker threshold.

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