Z156*


Posts: 2280
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:02 am
Some of the earliest Bell Beaker ancient dna sample radio carbon dates are females!!!

If there was a migration of R1b rich people moving west to east from Samara through the Ukraine to western Europe why does I5884 (Z2103) have no Yamnaya Samara autosomal dna?

If this population was carrying L51, where are the L51 descendant hotspots along the way? We know for a fact from the Y-Tree that P312/U106 up to L51 was going through a 17 YSNP bottleneck. We are only seeing the expansion of P312 in western Europe around 4,700 ybp and nowhere else in Europe to be seen before that.

Another problem is the autosomal dna. If there was a massive expansion of P312 and U106 people out of the Ukraine they would have Ukrainian autosomal dna, not Samara dna. That would mean that they bypassed the Ukraine altogether and used another route into western Europe.

But, we still do not any evidence of P312 nor U106 yet from Samara until they hit the Germany, where the oldest P312 sample has been found and U106 in Sweden so far.

When and if the earliest P312 or U106 is found in eastern Europe I will say fair play and you were right all along.

Posts: 2280
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:00 am
We know from this new paper on the 137 Steppe genomes that L51, L11, P312 and U106 were not born in the Steppe because they left no descendants all the way from Samara to the Ukraine.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Gioiello
It looks like semargl.me is closed down. I tried several times today but can't get on it. Will Yfull have to close too?

Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:32 am
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
It looks like semargl.me is closed down. I tried several times today but can't get on it. Will Yfull have to close too?


Of course semargl, i.e. Vladimir Tagankin, is a moderator here and probably with the Others of YFull are the owners of this blog, which seemed for sale and we have to thank them if they maintain it open. His data came from FTDNA and other companies, so that they were indicted for having hackered all those data, thus, if FTDNA closes Ysearch, also semargl's data will be closed very likely. Hope that YFull continues its activity for all us, because the STRs data are in the groups, even though they are managed from the administrators who are the same of FTDNA (thus the link between FTDNA and YFull isn't clear: are friends or competitors?). Anyway my theory is finished from so long, and nothing may change it. Only proving or disproving that through the aDNA.

Posts: 2280
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 10:30 am
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
It looks like semargl.me is closed down. I tried several times today but can't get on it. Will Yfull have to close too?


Of course semargl, i.e. Vladimir Tagankin, is a moderator here and probably with the Others of YFull are the owners of this blog, which seemed for sale and we have to thank them if they maintain it open. His data came from FTDNA and other companies, so that they were indicted for having hackered all those data, thus, if FTDNA closes Ysearch, also semargl's data will be closed very likely. Hope that YFull continues its activity for all us, because the STRs data are in the groups, even though they are managed from the administrators who are the same of FTDNA (thus the link between FTDNA and YFull isn't clear: are friends or competitors?). Anyway my theory is finished from so long, and nothing may change it. Only proving or disproving that through the aDNA.



It has been written many times at anthrogenica that L51 has not been found in western/central European Neolithic samples. They do not write that L51 has not been found in the Steppe either. It is P312, U106 that needs to be found in the Neolithic Steppe. L51 is not going to be found because of the bottleneck and that is the real reason that L51 has not been found in western Europe so far. They are not able to understand and that is why they are desperate to hang on to the Steppe autosomal dna. They forget also that all western/central Europeans have a lot of WHG, the autosomal group that Villabruna, loschbour etc. belonged to.

Posts: 2280
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:47 am
Gioiello
This paper below is from 15 years ago and what has changed? I will tell you. We know from years of research that the ancestors of most modern western European R1b went through two bottlenecks. The first bottleneck was M269>L23 (103 YSNPs) and second L23>P312 and U106 (20 YSNPs). The birth and expansion of P312 and U106 began around 5,000 years ago in the late Neolithic. The earliest P312 has been found in Germany and the earliest U106 in Sweden. We assume that P312 and U106 5,000 ybp originated in one single family line. They both had only 300 years or 10 generations to produce offspring that were widespread in western Europe 2,700 ybp.



https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 2203003737

Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:25 am
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
This paper below is from 15 years ago and what has changed? I will tell you. We know from years of research that the ancestors of most modern western European R1b went through two bottlenecks. The first bottleneck was M269>L23 (103 YSNPs) and second L23>P312 and U106 (20 YSNPs). The birth and expansion of P312 and U106 began around 5,000 years ago in the late Neolithic. The earliest P312 has been found in Germany and the earliest U106 in Sweden. We assume that P312 and U106 5,000 ybp originated in one single family line. They both had only 300 years or 10 generations to produce offspring that were widespread in western Europe 2,700 ybp.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 2203003737


My resaerch began on 2007 just starting from a paper of Christian Capelli:

From: Gioiello Tognoni <gioiellotognoni@hotmail.it>
Subject: [DNA] Umbilicus mundi
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 19:04:09 +0200

Cristian Capelli wrote, after a deep analysis, being one of the
young geniuses of Genetics, in “Y chromosome genetic variation in
the Italian peninsula is clinal and supports an admixture model
for the Mesolithic-Neolithic encounter”:
1) “The current set of data also provides a first frame for
testing the hypothesis of genetic continuity from Palaeolithic
to Mesolithic in Italy through the last Ice age. This
would point to the presence of an Italian Pleistocene refugium,
postulated for Iberian, Italian and Balkan peninsulae
for a number of species (Hewitt, 2001; Brito, 2005), but not
proposed for humans (Semino et al., 2000; Rosser et al.,
2000). This inconsistency could be possibly due to the fact
that so far no specific haplogroups have been identified at
Y chromosome level in Italy (Semino et al., 2000). However
this could be due to lack of resolution in the current set
of markers and other Y chromosome sublineages not yet
characterised might represent a specific marker for the Italian
area. Taking into consideration current European Y
chromosome hg distribution and data presented here, a
possible candidate could be within hg R1*(xR1a1). A comparison
of the genetic variation estimated as the variance of
the repeat scores averaged across loci of this group in both
Iberia and Italy did not show significant difference
(P > 0.05, data not shown, Brion et al., 2004; Bosch
et al., 2000, 2001). Looking at the pattern of haplotypes
sharing within hg P [that contains hg R1*(xR1a1)], only
28% of those are shared among the two populations. This
value is well below the one estimated when comparing Iberia
with areas re-peopled after last glacial maximum, as the
British Isles (47%) (Capelli et al., 2003). The opposite pattern
is instead observed when comparing haplotypes within
haplogroups whose dispersion was probably associated
with different and more recent events, as hg J (data not
shown). This suggests that the R1*(xR1a1) variation present
in Italy appear not to be a subset of the Iberian one.
More extensive analysis would give the opportunity to test
this hypothesis further”.
Aude maiora, Capelli, tu quoque Romanus es! The Basque language
can’t have been introduced in Spain from Hg. R1b, being a language
close to Caucasian (A. Trombetti, Le origini della lingua basca, 1923-25),
but rather from Hg. G, who had a genetic “drift and bottlenecks” (p. 235)
with the introgression to Spain of Hg. R1b, who there were not then, but
came from Italy (the same for North Europe). The last findings demonstrate
that also the “father” of homo sapiens sapiens were probably the Italian
“homo of Saccopastore”, of ancient African Origin and come back to Africa.
If J2 and E3b came to Italy from Anatolia, R1b1c could be the haplogroup
of Paleolithic Italy: West Europe 80-90%, Italy 40%, Turkey 15%.
1) 2) “Assuming proper identification of the source populations, these
results suggest that in terms of demographic influence on the paternal
Italian gene pool, the role of Neolithic farmers was greater than Greek
historical colonizers of South Italy” (p. 237).
2) 3) “Similarly, given the sporadic and rare distribution of the E3b2
chromosomes, it is possible to conclude that North African gene flow,
if any, left no significant evidence in the current Italian Y chromosome
pool” (p. 237). The Normans deported to Lucera, and after a rebellion
annihilated, the Arab population of Sicily. Someone escaped!
3) 4) The distribution of E3b* (xE3b1, E3b2) is clearly Etruscan
(Central Tuscany 0.02, Elba Island (Tuscany) 0,01, Apennine Marche
0’07 (error for 0,03), Tuscany-Latium border 0,04, North-East Latium
0,02, West Campania 0,03): recent gene flow from Anatolia.

Annod uenturod Romai. Next year in Rome.

Gioiello Tognoni

Posts: 2280
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 7:24 am
Gioiello
Even though U106 may have formed or originated around 4,800-5,000 ybp, U106 may not have expanded until 4,200 ybp. That may be the reason that U106 is not found in the CWC or the BBC. Both cultures had ended by 4,200 ybp. A U106 expansion from Sweden would be a surprise to most but it is not inconceivable. The other two U106 ancient dna samples were found in younger branches in the Netherlands and in the Unetice Culture. The branch that I belong to Z156 could be as young as 4,000 ybp and there are a number of Z156 basal branches in Sweden.


The evidence points to P312's history being a lot different to that of the history of U106. P312 seems to be the older of the two and expanded a lot earlier and was a more prolific group than U106. And even within P312, L21 seems to be the dominant early subgroup.

Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:37 am
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
Even though U106 may have formed or originated around 4,800-5,000 ybp, U106 may not have expanded until 4,200 ybp. That may be the reason that U106 is not found in the CWC or the BBC. Both cultures had ended by 4,200 ybp. A U106 expansion from Sweden would be a surprise to most but it is not inconceivable. The other two U106 ancient dna samples were found in younger branches in the Netherlands and in the Unetice Culture. The branch that I belong to Z156 could be as young as 4,000 ybp and there are a number of Z156 basal branches in Sweden.


The evidence points to P312's history being a lot different to that of the history of U106. P312 seems to be the older of the two and expanded a lot earlier and was a more prolific group than U106. And even within P312, L21 seems to be the dominant early subgroup.


I just wrote that on Eurogenes that Eurogenes will delete:

Gioiello said...
@ Ric Hern
"Archaeology seems to suggest a link between the Zarzian Culture of the Southern Caspian and the Yangelskaya Culture of the Southern Urals. Are there any link between Yangelskaya and the Botai Culture ? Maybe the type of CHG that mostly mixed into EHG was from the Southern Urals ?
When they say more Basal then certainly we have to look at a population nearer to the time of origin of CHG which would be +-14 000 years ago ? So CHG formed after Haplogroup R migrated from Siberia to the West. Did R evacuate from the area between the Don, Urals and Caucasus completely and some Basal CHG people spread into this area just before Haplogroup R returned from the West during the Later Mesolithic ?
At the end of the day only more Mesolithic and Late Upper Palaeolithic samples will tell...."


Of course this is a possibility, i.e. that the R1b1 found in the East are a residual of the first migration from central Siberia westward, but why of R-L389+, the ancestor of all the subclades, we have in the Caucasus and Asia only one haplotype (that with YCAII=23-23 derived through a RecLOH from western European 18-23) whereas Italy has all the known 5 haplotypes? And why all the rest I am saying from more than ten years?
May 25, 2018 at 1:28 AM

Posts: 2280
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 2:07 pm
Gioiello
There were 155 ancient dna samples tested in Britain from the Neolithic and Bronze Age, 90 of them were male but no U106. Some of the samples were unresolved R1b.


Olalde et al 2017

"Label_1 Label_2 Sample_ID Y-HG mtDNA Date Country Sex SNPs
Britain_Bronze_Age England_EBA I2464 R1b1a1a2a1 I2 1750-1610 calBCE Great Britain M 52649
Britain_Bronze_Age England_EBA I2596 R1b1a1a2a1a J1c1 2280-2030 calBCE Great Britain M 354928
Britain_Bronze_Age England_EBA I2598 R1b1a1a2a1a H 2140-1940 calBCE Great Britain M 85900
Britain_Bronze_Age England_EBA I2618 R1b1a1a2a1a H1bs 2135-1951 calBCE Great Britain M 643010"

Posts: 2280
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 6:44 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
Even though U106 may have formed or originated around 4,800-5,000 ybp, U106 may not have expanded until 4,200 ybp. That may be the reason that U106 is not found in the CWC or the BBC. Both cultures had ended by 4,200 ybp. A U106 expansion from Sweden would be a surprise to most but it is not inconceivable. The other two U106 ancient dna samples were found in younger branches in the Netherlands and in the Unetice Culture. The branch that I belong to Z156 could be as young as 4,000 ybp and there are a number of Z156 basal branches in Sweden.


The evidence points to P312's history being a lot different to that of the history of U106. P312 seems to be the older of the two and expanded a lot earlier and was a more prolific group than U106. And even within P312, L21 seems to be the dominant early subgroup.


I just wrote that on Eurogenes that Eurogenes will delete:

Gioiello said...
@ Ric Hern
"Archaeology seems to suggest a link between the Zarzian Culture of the Southern Caspian and the Yangelskaya Culture of the Southern Urals. Are there any link between Yangelskaya and the Botai Culture ? Maybe the type of CHG that mostly mixed into EHG was from the Southern Urals ?
When they say more Basal then certainly we have to look at a population nearer to the time of origin of CHG which would be +-14 000 years ago ? So CHG formed after Haplogroup R migrated from Siberia to the West. Did R evacuate from the area between the Don, Urals and Caucasus completely and some Basal CHG people spread into this area just before Haplogroup R returned from the West during the Later Mesolithic ?
At the end of the day only more Mesolithic and Late Upper Palaeolithic samples will tell...."


Of course this is a possibility, i.e. that the R1b1 found in the East are a residual of the first migration from central Siberia westward, but why of R-L389+, the ancestor of all the subclades, we have in the Caucasus and Asia only one haplotype (that with YCAII=23-23 derived through a RecLOH from western European 18-23) whereas Italy has all the known 5 haplotypes? And why all the rest I am saying from more than ten years?
May 25, 2018 at 1:28 AM


Gioiello
One poster states that EHG=WHG+ANE. That suggests that EHG is derived from WHG and the Villabruna post Ice Age clan. The experts say that the Yamanya were 60% EHG+ 40%CHG. Those levels of autosomal dna are not seen in the Bell Beaker ancient dna samples. We know that something is not right about the Yamnaya_Samara dna in the Beaker people because they suggest that the Beaker people came direct from the Steppe.

L51 would have to travel 2,000 km from Samara to Hungary and 1,100 years to produce L51 descendants along the way. We do not see any P312, S1200 nor U106 hotspots from Samara to the Hungary. We do not see any evidence of this in the modern or ancient dna. They have not produced the evidence because they cannot find it and we have won.
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