Where did DF27 originate? and when did it expand?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:13 pm
....Also, Both the king of England Henry II and the king of France Philippe le Bel mentioned LE VIVIER SUR MER as they were very interested in it because of the traffic between France and England (year 1181 for the first and year 1296 for the second one)... and i can trace my Y lineage to 1464 at LE VIVIER so i believe it just confirms that either i come from Southern England or you come from Northern Brittany.... somewhere from the 5th century to 1464

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:24 pm
Richard Rocca wrote:...I made this map last year but I don't know that it received many comments. Not liking the answer is not a good justification for making the very obvious link between DF27 and the South-Western Bell Beaker provinces invalid.
Image


I'm trying to get Didier Vernade to post here. He is very knowledgeable on SRY2627 and has studied Bell Beaker data. Here is his comment on the map. Hopefully he'll join here.
Didier Vernade wrote:My comment is that the computer drawing didn't "see" that all the high SRY2627 area, in Catalonia (northeast Spain) is empty of any red triangle. I would interpret this as a sign that "old" DF27 were identified by SRY2627 people and killed, possibly indicating that the 2 so called brother clades have been fighting against each other in Spain. This is again one case where a paragroup map isn't very significant. The high densities of "DF27" along the coast in Portugal is worth noticing.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b- ... ssage/5634
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:08 pm
Mikewww wrote:
Richard Rocca wrote:...I made this map last year but I don't know that it received many comments. Not liking the answer is not a good justification for making the very obvious link between DF27 and the South-Western Bell Beaker provinces invalid.


I'm trying to get Didier Vernade to post here. He is very knowledgeable on SRY2627 and has studied Bell Beaker data. Here is his comment on the map. Hopefully he'll join here.
Didier Vernade wrote:My comment is that the computer drawing didn't "see" that all the high SRY2627 area, in Catalonia (northeast Spain) is empty of any red triangle. I would interpret this as a sign that "old" DF27 were identified by SRY2627 people and killed, possibly indicating that the 2 so called brother clades have been fighting against each other in Spain. This is again one case where a paragroup map isn't very significant. The high densities of "DF27" along the coast in Portugal is worth noticing.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b- ... ssage/5634


It could be the case that the Catalonian Bell Beakers were a different subclade of DF27. Here is a Spanish Bell Beaker map that shows Bell Beaker finds in Iberia (as opposed to my map that shows Palmela Point finds). As one can see, there is plenty of Bell Beaker finds in Catalonia, but it seems to lack the Palmela points. It will be interesting to see where Z225 fits into all of this.

Image
Last edited by Richard Rocca on Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ (Z49- Z367-), Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
Mother's Paternal: J1c3d-YSC234/Z2329+ (YSC80-), Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:19 pm
GROUAZEL wrote:
GROUAZEL wrote:


Yes on my mother side (mtDNA) they are from Normandy so not too far from England either (got 1/8 th Brittish too on this side). Anyway, where is your Issacs ' family from exactly? When I was studying at the Celtic department of the University of Rennes II Brittany, there was that guy that wrote a thesis about the Breton family name "LE BRETON" (which means the Breton man) and was wondering why on Earth there were so many "LE BRETON" families in Brittany ? He found out that many Breton settled in South England for centuries and got their family name their (Breton/Briton); but eventually many came back to Brittany and kept the family name that was given to them while in England: maybe you belong to one of this Breton guy whom moved to England but never came back. Also, the oldest GROUAZEL of the name (around 1464) lived in LE VIVIER SUR MER in BRITTANY as I said previously and at that time the Harbors of ST MALO, CANCALE and LE VIVIER SUR MER were quite busy and had quite some traffic going and coming from the UK (all 3 in North Brittany and very closed from one another)... so as you mentioned it earlier it is highly possible that either yor ancestor came from Brittany or mine from England -or both ?

I ll be curious to hear more about your paternal line: how close are we related on the YDNA 's side?

Romain



I just saw you were from Devonshire and I am from Penthièvre and Dol region : all 3 used to belong to the ancient briton kingdom of Dumnonia / Domnonee which we dont know much except it was a unique kingdom in both north Brittany and England: perhaps our common ancestor used to live at that time? (by the way Devon is the modern spelling of ancient Dumnonia)


I am currently waiting on the results of an Isaac "cousin" who we have tested for SRY2627. The results should be in around early April. His Great, Great Grandfather was from Zeal Monochrum, Devon. I traced it back from his G,G, Grandfather back to the early 1600's. The paper trail isn't 100 percent solid, as there are at least three Isaac families in Devon, one of which was originally from Kent. But I do believe I have it traced to Winkleigh, Devon in the early 1600's.

I think we are of some sort of Celtic/Brythonic/Breton background. I just don't see SRY2627 as being Germanic in the region of Devon. I also agree that our Y-line, if we do indeed share the same ancient ancestor, was in Brittany and then Southwest, England. Whether or not yours migrated with mine up into England and then back is an interesting dilemma. I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other, but given our Gd is fairly high, I'd say our lines split in Brittany and mine kept moving further North.

This map of L21 likely represents how the inhabitants of Britain were pushed westwards, due to the invading Anglo-Saxons.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=i ... 8654001290
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:25 pm
Interestingly a second NW Iberian (Galicia and Asturias) has now tested positive for Z225. The NW is another area that is lacking in Palmela points. Of course we need a lot more than two samples, but it might be something to keep an eye on.

EDIT: I found another Z225+ in the Iberia project. Surname is "Alonso" which is also most common in NW Spain.
Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ (Z49- Z367-), Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
Mother's Paternal: J1c3d-YSC234/Z2329+ (YSC80-), Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:33 am
Richard Rocca wrote:
Mikewww wrote:
Richard Rocca wrote:...I made this map last year but I don't know that it received many comments. Not liking the answer is not a good justification for making the very obvious link between DF27 and the South-Western Bell Beaker provinces invalid.


I'm trying to get Didier Vernade to post here. He is very knowledgeable on SRY2627 and has studied Bell Beaker data. Here is his comment on the map. Hopefully he'll join here.
Didier Vernade wrote:My comment is that the computer drawing didn't "see" that all the high SRY2627 area, in Catalonia (northeast Spain) is empty of any red triangle. I would interpret this as a sign that "old" DF27 were identified by SRY2627 people and killed, possibly indicating that the 2 so called brother clades have been fighting against each other in Spain. This is again one case where a paragroup map isn't very significant. The high densities of "DF27" along the coast in Portugal is worth noticing.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b- ... ssage/5634


It could be the case that the Catalonian Bell Beakers were a different subclade of DF27. Here is a Spanish Bell Beaker map that shows Bell Beaker finds in Iberia (as opposed to my map that shows Palmela Point finds). As one can see, there is plenty of Bell Beaker finds in Catalonia, but it seems to lack the Palmela points. It will be interesting to see where Z225 fits into all of this.

Image


I have found it impossible to find any sort of modern map of maritime beaker on the web. I know Cunliffe has a decent one in his Europe Between the Oceans book but it has never made it onto the web.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:41 am
What strikes me right off the bat, is the similarities on both maps of southwest Ireland. The other is the movements from the southern Pyrenees up to Belgium. No matter the ties with Iberia, there is an emerging trend of the north/south cluster in the Netherlands. Also of note is the presence of DF27 in modern areas once belonging to four major cultures. Aquitani, Celtic, celtiberians, and Iberians.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:25 am
Sam Isaacs wrote:
GROUAZEL wrote:
GROUAZEL wrote:


Yes on my mother side (mtDNA) they are from Normandy so not too far from England either (got 1/8 th Brittish too on this side). Anyway, where is your Issacs ' family from exactly? When I was studying at the Celtic department of the University of Rennes II Brittany, there was that guy that wrote a thesis about the Breton family name "LE BRETON" (which means the Breton man) and was wondering why on Earth there were so many "LE BRETON" families in Brittany ? He found out that many Breton settled in South England for centuries and got their family name their (Breton/Briton); but eventually many came back to Brittany and kept the family name that was given to them while in England: maybe you belong to one of this Breton guy whom moved to England but never came back. Also, the oldest GROUAZEL of the name (around 1464) lived in LE VIVIER SUR MER in BRITTANY as I said previously and at that time the Harbors of ST MALO, CANCALE and LE VIVIER SUR MER were quite busy and had quite some traffic going and coming from the UK (all 3 in North Brittany and very closed from one another)... so as you mentioned it earlier it is highly possible that either yor ancestor came from Brittany or mine from England -or both ?

I ll be curious to hear more about your paternal line: how close are we related on the YDNA 's side?

Romain



I just saw you were from Devonshire and I am from Penthièvre and Dol region : all 3 used to belong to the ancient briton kingdom of Dumnonia / Domnonee which we dont know much except it was a unique kingdom in both north Brittany and England: perhaps our common ancestor used to live at that time? (by the way Devon is the modern spelling of ancient Dumnonia)


I am currently waiting on the results of an Isaac "cousin" who we have tested for SRY2627. The results should be in around early April. His Great, Great Grandfather was from Zeal Monochrum, Devon. I traced it back from his G,G, Grandfather back to the early 1600's. The paper trail isn't 100 percent solid, as there are at least three Isaac families in Devon, one of which was originally from Kent. But I do believe I have it traced to Winkleigh, Devon in the early 1600's.

I think we are of some sort of Celtic/Brythonic/Breton background. I just don't see SRY2627 as being Germanic in the region of Devon. I also agree that our Y-line, if we do indeed share the same ancient ancestor, was in Brittany and then Southwest, England. Whether or not yours migrated with mine up into England and then back is an interesting dilemma. I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other, but given our Gd is fairly high, I'd say our lines split in Brittany and mine kept moving further North.

This map of L21 likely represents how the inhabitants of Britain were pushed westwards, due to the invading Anglo-Saxons.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=i ... 8654001290


Perhaps so, but it doesn't explain the 10 to 15% band of L21 in the west of Norway. The division looks remarkably similar to that on the U106 map on the same page.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:25 am
Deleted double post. See below.
Last edited by GoldenHind on Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:28 am
Mikewww wrote:
GoldenHind wrote:.... the proportion of DF27 in Iberia seems to be very high. Any theory about DF27 has to take that into account.

I think it is pretty clear that DF27 is dominant in Iberia.

GoldenHind wrote:.... That being said, it wouldn't surprise me if there are subclades of DF27 that have no connection to Iberia.

That is also true. We already have them, such as L165. I think the Z209/N-S cluster group will be interesting. We have a pretty good string of SNPs to test for on the way down to M153, aka the Basque Marker.

Webb has already been thinking about this, but if we can discern some of the branching to various geographies and can estimate the timing of the branching we are on to something.

Who knows? Maybe DF27 is of Iberian Bell Beaker origination, but Z209/N-S (along with others) is the reflux (bounce-back) of Desideri's hypothesis.


I can think of only two possible explanations for this phenomena. Either DF27 originated outside of Iberia and not all subclades migrated there, or the non Spanish subclades were only born after some DF27 had left Iberia.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
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